problems in Hell

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darktroll
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problems in Hell

Postby darktroll » Sun Nov 26, 2000 4:22 am

On the selfish quest, there is an option loose stats or loose your friend. Well I thought ok if I loose my companion , ill resurrect him, only catch was that my paladin lost her class doing that. So I had to take the other way and that wasnt so funny loosing stats.
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Lucian
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Postby Lucian » Sun Nov 26, 2000 5:09 am

well..if you didnt wanted to play the good selfless one..then why did you pick a paladin?

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Postby Crovax » Sun Nov 26, 2000 9:16 am

muhahhaa....



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Postby bullions27 » Sun Nov 26, 2000 9:24 am

Power gaming.
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Chris Boney
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Postby Chris Boney » Sun Nov 26, 2000 9:48 am

I remember this quest.
It was a really ugly one. Once I was there with my solo hero, a beast arrived and summoned an innocent farmer from somewhere (due to the lack that I had no companions with me?!) So I was given the choice between sacrificing this good man and some stats. Uhm, I guess I would have sacrificed some stats, BUT! Last not least the demon is the guilty who is slaying him, and not me (in order by making choices ie. which path to take)
Taking a path alone doesn't kill anybody, it was the demon, and only the demon alone, who would have suspectedly killed him or any other good persons, that's not an effect of which decision I personally make.
demon = demon, always bad.

Maybe one can understand quickly if you do the reverse test:
Demon takes a farmer, and demands from you to kill innocent people, if you refuse he will kill the farmer. Ok, if you don't agree to his demands, then he will slay the farmer again, and if you do accept and kill innocent people, he will release the farmer unharmed.
And what do we learn of that ????
If you are unlucky and somebody demands you to do bad things, and he later turns out to be an illusion, you will still go to prision for your crimes.
And if don't heed the advice (read: demands) of others, they'll soon turn out to be illusions !
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Image

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Postby bullions27 » Sun Nov 26, 2000 2:56 pm

One word about Paladins. Their strength lies in a form of faith and is purely spiritual. They strongly believe the actions of an individual will govern their lives and so they take serious responsibility of what they do. This is what makes a Paladin a Paladin.

In this case about sacrifice, a Paladin will risk his own life, or part of it, to save an innocent. He will sometimes even extend the gesture to evil characters. One of their traits, or even a flaw some people might think, is that they feel evil can be forgiven if they repent and it is their duty to "re-educate" them. Saying this, it wouldn't matter if the victim was an illusion or not. That Test is a Test of Faith and judge of character for Paladins. A demon might get a kick out of it toying with the Paladin, that's a given. What if the farmer wasn't an illusion? What if the farmer dies because of the Paladin's cowardice? It's called a heroic flaw but Paladins are Lawful Good characters, and they will help the innocent. To refuse is a selfish act.

Now any other class can use what'd you said as their argument not to help the victim. However for Paladins there is no debate.



[This message has been edited by bullions27 (edited 11-26-2000).]
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Postby Chris Boney » Sun Nov 26, 2000 4:48 pm

This decription of Paladins is tough, very tough. This will keep me a bit occupied until I find out the entire meaning, but what about this: I also pointed out that a reverse test proves, that acting according to a third person (ie. the beast states that the farmer should die if you don't act according to his demands) will make your acceptance of his existence official, thus binding you to the fact that he exists, and furthermore now making you guilty (in case you take the selfish, non-sacrificing part) or a noble person (in case you sacrifice part of yourself).
Or in one, simple sentence:
How can you be so sure, that the demon WILL kill the innocent farmer? With all respect, this is demanding that only we are the humanoids, worthy of consideration a second, third and multiple time, but a beast is just a machine acting like it was programmed to.
Therefore a paladin is a person who deals out punishment to the evil scum for the sake of all good, but not an Engineer who shuts down machines.

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Postby bullions27 » Sun Nov 26, 2000 5:19 pm

From what I could gather of your post, you're asking if a Paladin should call the demon's bluff whether it would or won't kill the farmer? That is utterly cold-hearted.

I'm not going to go through a list on how a Paladin should act according to this and this situation. However, and again, the strength of a Paladin lies within his faith and his morales and judgement are based upon his faith. So different situations will present different choices. The overall gist is Paladins, yes, are goody do-goers and will go their ways to save an innocent. Their monastic view of life only adds to it.

The Test of Selfishness presents a choice. You could either sacrifice a part of your life, or sacrifice a friend or an innocent. A Paladin will choose the former. This doesn't imply the fact the demon has won. I don't see how you could draw an argument upon that. The purpose of these tests are to see what kind of person you really are. If the Paladin were to choose the latter, he placed guilt upon himself becuase his action killed an innocent or if it was an illusion, would have if it wasn't one. He would then become a Fallen Paladin and immediately lose all of his powers. The demon will probably gloat that you would weaken yourself before the epic confrontation, but the demon more than likely lost with that Test. It strengthens the Paladin's fortitude even more and to the eyes of his deity, more than worthy to be aided.


[This message has been edited by bullions27 (edited 11-26-2000).]
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Postby Chris Boney » Mon Nov 27, 2000 3:15 am

I merely want to point out again, that I think that a beast is capable of making decisions. If there was a machine going to do harm, or a a rock falling down on the farmer instead of the beast, and you could only save the farmers life by sacrificing part of yourself (like in the original setup), then it would be necessary to make this decision.
And yes, hopefully in this situation I really wished I were strong and fortified enough to sacrifice part of myself for the sake of doing something a little bit good. And rescue the farmer! And not be like the cold hearted scum who laugh at sacrificing part of self for the well beeing of others!
The rest of my arguments in order to not to bore you is already in my previous post above.

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Postby Chris Boney » Mon Nov 27, 2000 4:04 am

It's me again Image Well hello and I forgot to write what I think of your first sentence, you said:
"From what I could gather of your post, you're asking if a Paladin should call the demon's bluff whether it would or won't kill the farmer?"

Well, actually yes, I'm asking this Image
We have a word here for the missing of this tiny but important detail, and forgetting to do this. It's prejudice.
A paladin who takes it for "100% true" that this beast in the example is going to kill the farmer, is blind to the fact that the beast is capable of making decisions.
And how about if the beast got in panic and running in fear, after beeing so geographically close to a paladin in full power, with shield of fortitude and holy avenger? hm?
And how if the beast just wanted to know the path and realises that it's not necessary anymore to kill the farmer after recognizing the path which the paladin took after he has passed the point of no return?
I believe this entire sacrifice-or-selfish-quest not to be a challenge where anything could be tested or checked for a result, just the slaugthering of a poor innocent farmer!
Ergo it's absolutely crazy and fully penetrated by prejudice if a paladin took the sacrificing path and looses part of himself for nothing!
And ergo I furthermore demand, that by your own words it should be made public and accepted throughout the realms, that the loss of paladin status and the change into a fighter might now be called the "restoration from an abnormal status"; and furthermore that the holy avenger should now be degraded to "is capable of harming only persons who believe in it's power, to all others the damage is degraded to 1d10 with no special effects added".

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Postby Maurice » Mon Nov 27, 2000 5:04 am

Methinks you don't get a point what the Paladin is all about. If you don't, stick with a fighter instead then ...

Once you realise what the title Paladin really means for the character's attitude, view of the world, and his beliefs, feel free to try again. But before that, don't bother.

(And when a Paladin fails, he doesn't become a plain fighter, he becomes a Fallen Paladin, an avatar of evil).

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Postby Chris Boney » Mon Nov 27, 2000 7:21 am

Maybe I'm dumb.
I don't get the difference between a noble fighter, and a "noble fighter", which you call paladins. From all what I read here, take brain and consciousness, reasonal thinking and ability to count one plus one from a fighter, and you get a paladin.

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Postby Maurice » Mon Nov 27, 2000 7:35 am

Then I'm sure my previous message stands. I guess it's not up to everyone to understand such principles.

Hell, I don't know why anyone would like to rule the world, I don't understand principles like that, while others no doubt do. Image

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Postby Chris Boney » Mon Nov 27, 2000 9:17 am

What what what ?
What was this about ruling the world ???

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Postby Maurice » Mon Nov 27, 2000 11:01 am

Well, I just had to make up an example ... so I took something grand Image

Anyway, since there are people ruling a (large) nation - albeit not the world - it is obvious that some people like to rule lots of others. But I don't have any idea why they would want to. I don't understand the principles behind wanting to rule. Just to point out we all have our shortcomings.

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Postby Lucian » Mon Nov 27, 2000 11:22 am

paladins live by their faith..and any action that reliazes the tenets for them become their milk and butter..reinforcing their belief and driving them on to even greater deeds..true piety can make a man do tremendous feats..that no mere warriors would be able to..and realizing them as the holy, noble and almost saintlike in their appearance..driven and moved by their religion to lead by example..becomming a shining beacon for others to follow....therefore a true paladin would immediately act to save the innocent farmer or companion..his piety taking all the pain..and the selfless act reinforcing his belief....this could be seen as their increased saving throws..as their intense belief helps them...examples are through history of holy men that could wield glowing iron or walk on burning coal..and not feel anything or having the sligthest mark from it..thats a paladin

[This message has been edited by Lucian (edited 11-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lucian (edited 11-27-2000).]

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Postby bullions27 » Mon Nov 27, 2000 1:01 pm

Heh, where did you copy all that from, Lucian? Image Anyway, Chris Boney don't argue with me about the virutes and morales of a Paladin until you fully understand what a Paladin is in the world. Image In any case, what you really don't understand is the difference betweem alignments and not the classes. Your basis of arguement is strictly on a typical Chaotic Good/Neutral character. Even a noble fighter, not a Paladin, who is of Lawful Good alignment will do the EXACT same action as the Paladin but perhaps guided but different reasons. A demon is intelligent, it's an accepted fact. Paladins and veteran adventurers aren't that stupid as to not acknowledge that.

By the way just to add the new 3rd Edition rules for Paladins IMHO are totally bogus. It's catering to the people who cried infamy when no other race but humans could be the class. Other races can have deities or inner spiritual beliefs that could grant them powers, but they are not called Paladins. Dwarves were already covered with the Champion kit. Why let Orcs and Drows be Paladins? Idiots. Image
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Postby Lucian » Mon Nov 27, 2000 1:11 pm

All solely my own words..my take on paladins..trying to add to this very interesting topic Image

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Postby bullions27 » Mon Nov 27, 2000 1:43 pm

*applauds*
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Postby Nighthawk » Mon Nov 27, 2000 1:45 pm

Just a small thing to add here. When a paladin falls and becomes a fallen paladin it's different from an Angel falling and becoming a fallen angel. Fallen paladins lose their powers but are not the avatars of evil mentioned before. They are redeemable and can regain their status.

Anti-paladins are the evil equivalent of paladins.

In any case, I don't like that test much. No matter what your reasoning behind the decision and no matter what alignment your character is, they become evil if they take the 'selfish' path...

This even counts for chaotic good or neutral characters who reason that the death (at Normal level) is much less permanent than the stat loss and therefore better for the party...in the long run even for the party member who gets killed!

Since this is a special alignment change, even Shadowkeeper can't fix it back!