Idiots vs. Brainers

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Ron
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Postby Ron » Wed Jan 03, 2001 12:09 am

Mage wins
Minor Spell Sequencer= 2 magic arrows
Major Spell Sequencer= 3 magic arrows
Spell Trigger= 3 Lighting bolt
Thats like a tops of 175hp in 3 spells.
If the mage has the robe of verna(spelling) He casts 4x faster. Melee has no chance.


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Rail
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Postby Rail » Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:51 am

Of course, with the cloak of mirrors, all those spells will be reflected right back at the mage. Ouch! Then again, if the mage has a cloak of mirrors, all you have is one fancy light show.
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Postby Caernarvon » Wed Jan 03, 2001 2:10 am

If a fighter has cloak of mirroring, what is the mage supposed to do? Most summoned creatures go down *very fast* to a high level fighter. All the mage can use is disabling spells & try to hack away with tensors... this might work on a fighter, but with a paladin's +2 saves and magic resistance, I'm a bit dubious.

Those who've played all mage parties know how frusterating it can be in Suldanessar, just when you get 9th lvl spells, every monster and his brother had high magic resistance Image. Or try fighting Drizzt's party with mages... the ranged fighers bring down your defenses so fast it isn't even funny. The battle is still winnable of course, but it's FAR tougher than facing them with a fighter party.

(Wow, I don't believe this... I'm defending fighters even though I usually play mages. Go figure! Image)

Actually, I didn't notice this mentioned yet, so I'll throw this in: the mage is a unique character in that her skill is very dependant on random change. If the first few spells succeed, the mage will probably win easily and unhurt. If the mage misses a few spells early to magic resistance or saves, she will probably die horribly. So, I'd wager that no matter which side would win more on average, there will be a large deviation in results.

Anyone know how to get two of your characters to duel? Do you just start a MP game and import them in?

[This message has been edited by Caernarvon (edited 01-03-2001).]

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Rail
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Postby Rail » Wed Jan 03, 2001 4:29 am

Oh, there are lots of things you can do to the fighter with the cloak of mirroring. Abu Dahlzim's (sp?) Horrid Wilting targeted right next to the fighter is one that comes to mind.

Tensers trans. should never be used to square off vs. a fighter of equal level. Fighter will win 10 out of 10 times!

Something no one has pointed out, AC on a fighter doesn't matter in this hypothetical battle. A kensai, of all the fighter sub-classes, would fare best vs. a mage. AC would only matter vs. summoned opponents, and a high level fighter should be able to walk thru most summoned opponents without problem, especially a kensai.

Caernarvon, I feel the same as you. I like to play fighters and thieves best, but I tend to defend the mage side. I guess the grass is always greener...
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Postby Elenias Nal'nair » Wed Jan 03, 2001 6:45 am

...starting a multi-player and importing the 2 duelists won't work because since they are in ONE party each one's opponent is friendly and stays. They won't chance to hostile (tried this a many times...hehe). So some mage's spells won't work properly, specially Abi-Dalzim's Horrid...
Kind of a disadvantage for the mage.

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Postby Ron » Wed Jan 03, 2001 9:16 pm

What about a wizard slayer? That Cumulative 10%, all you'd need is 3-4 hits it would be all over. If you could get over there in time, it would work. Does it work with bows also? If so get the 3 shot a round bow with a wizard slayer. Mage wouldn't stand a chance there. I guess at cap it all boils down to who has the best equipment.

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Postby Caernarvon » Wed Jan 03, 2001 10:03 pm

Rail-- thanks for reminding me about the cloak of mirroring, I forgot that area of effect stuff still got through (doh!). I think I'm thinking of the belt of inertial barrier and its 50% magic damage resistance.

Still, I think I'm sold that the mage would win if well prepared. It's like fighting dragons with mages--it's amazing how fast the overgrown lizards fall. In small battles against one fighter the mage will eventually succeed with a disabling spell. Then she can win with summoning spells of damage spells.

IMHO, that a fighter even has a change against a well prepared mage is a joke Image. This means that a typical adventuring mage, who would probably only have like half his spellbook, would be toast Image.

I think part of the "grass is always greener" syndrome is because you probably play your favorite class type (or a related type) your first few games. Since you don't know what to expect (where to get the best equipment, what monsters you will face, etc), those will probably be your hardest games. Then when you get around to playing the other classes, they seems easy. That's my best theory anyway Image

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Postby Ron » Wed Jan 03, 2001 10:25 pm

Theory's can be dangerous Image
Last words of a dead scientist,
"In Theory"

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[This message has been edited by Ron (edited 01-03-2001).]
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Rail
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Postby Rail » Thu Jan 04, 2001 12:29 am

Again, it all depends on the player. If the mage is prepared and the fighter isn't, then the fighter is toast. If the fighter is prepared and not the mage, mage is a goner. So many variables, but interesting conversation.

Fighter could have Ring of Spell Turning, many items with improved haste or invisibility, Namarra +2 (w/ silence 3/day), Greenstone Amulet, and, my favorite, the Book of Infinite Spells. Many others to throw off the mage strategies. Not to mention Prot from Magic scrolls. I agree with you, though. A prepared mage would usually defeat a prepared fighter.

[This message has been edited by Rail (edited 01-04-2001).]
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Postby Aegis » Thu Jan 04, 2001 11:30 am

I think it's time to annouce my opinion on this conversation. I beleive a Fighter/Paladin would win. Think about, a fighter at the cap has huge amounts of Hit points, correct? Inaddition, if it were a Paladin with a high enough level, he could poisin the mage easily, and if no potions were availably (Which usually is the case in a duel) either the mage would die first, or they both would, therefore ending in a draw. (believe me, don't knock the little spells, I've killed massive creatures with poisin).
Next, given the proper equipment, namely armor that increases Magic resistence (like the Legions Pride for instance. Bear with me if there is better stuff, I'm only at chap. 3) you can effectively gain a magic resistence of 100% in one or two of the elements castable. Now, the oppenant won't have a clue which two, if any your resistent to, and probably cast them, trying. So, if the Fighter has resistence to fire at 100%, all the fire spells are zapped.

Okay, onto weapons... a fighter with a good bow, and good bow skill, could disrupt the casting of mage from a distance, then as the mage preps again, it allows the fighter to close the distance. Repeat until at hand to hand. Bam! One dead mage, because the fighter give little time to cast defensive spells.

So, IMHO I believe the fighter/paladin would win.

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Postby Aegis » Thu Jan 04, 2001 11:30 am

I think it's time to annouce my opinion on this conversation. I beleive a Fighter/Paladin would win. Think about, a fighter at the cap has huge amounts of Hit points, correct? Inaddition, if it were a Paladin with a high enough level, he could poisin the mage easily, and if no potions were availably (Which usually is the case in a duel) either the mage would die first, or they both would, therefore ending in a draw. (believe me, don't knock the little spells, I've killed massive creatures with poisin).
Next, given the proper equipment, namely armor that increases Magic resistence (like the Legions Pride for instance. Bear with me if there is better stuff, I'm only at chap. 3) you can effectively gain a magic resistence of 100% in one or two of the elements castable. Now, the oppenant won't have a clue which two, if any your resistent to, and probably cast them, trying. So, if the Fighter has resistence to fire at 100%, all the fire spells are zapped.

Okay, onto weapons... a fighter with a good bow, and good bow skill, could disrupt the casting of mage from a distance, then as the mage preps again, it allows the fighter to close the distance. Repeat until at hand to hand. Bam! One dead mage, because the fighter give little time to cast defensive spells.

So, IMHO I believe the fighter/paladin would win.

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Postby Gruntboy » Thu Jan 04, 2001 11:43 am

Ah, the eternal strategic struggle between the offense and the defense.

Fighter with bows disrupt mage,
Mage casts mirror image (v. quick spell),
Mage pounds Fighter.

Mage whups powerful spells at fighter,
fighter has magic resistance (or reflection or closes quickly),
fighter splats mage.

This will never be solved except by one-on-one combat. It depends entirely on the resourcefulness and invention of the player. Let the deathmatch begin!
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Postby Ivanhoe » Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:10 pm

On the presumption that there is a duel the mage should win most of the time. Sometimes the fighter might get lucky, but usually the mage should win:

Firstly there are many items that give excellent +++s to AC v missile attacks -Range edge.

Secondly he will have, say, Staff of the Magi, which means he is invisible. Also he will have speeded up casting from items and/or contingencies meaning several protection spells get cast before fighter even gets started - Protection edge.

Then he has many ways of achieving instant death of the fighter. Even the highest level fighter has at least a 5% chance each time of succumbing. He can also summon whole heaps of monsters. Yes each one may be no match for the fighter, but cumulatively they will wear him down, while the mage casts spells or uses his staves/rods/wands - Damage edge.

If the fighter has very high magic reistance he might make a fight of it, but then there's Time Stop, Wish, Mordakein's Sword...

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Postby ltldrgn1 » Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:33 pm

Just an opinion, there are too many variables involved. If both were prepared then the fighter class could have protection from magic scroll, which lasts 10 turns. virtually no magic works. also carsomyr has a tendency to dispel protective magics with each successful hit (with some exceptions). It seems most assume that while the mage casts invisibility and go beyond the fighters LOS the fighter will just stand there and wait to be killed. I play both fighter types and mages, and like both. I have no particular preference and think that there are circumstances where a mage is much more beneficial that a fighter type, and others where a fighter more so.
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Postby Jhareth of house Noquar » Thu Jan 04, 2001 5:36 pm

With no prep time, the fighter has the distinct advantage. With prep time, it's the mage all the way...
No mage in his right mind would enter a pit fight with a fighter, however! My main pnp character (Drow Mage/Thief) has been "challenged" to stand toe to toe with a high level fighter... and I laughed at his sorry butt! The way I figure it, that style of fighting is his/her specialty... By old school rules of dueling, if they bring the challenge, I get to choose the time/place/fighting style... Basically, that over-confident pompous fighter died in his sleep later that week... Image

Don't fight 'em on their turf! That's what mages have shield-men for!!!
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The Nutless One
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Postby The Nutless One » Thu Jan 04, 2001 6:49 pm

I think EVERYONE has established that a prepared mage and prepared fighter, will be a slobberknocker. So let's drop the point alright ?
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Lucian
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Postby Lucian » Thu Jan 04, 2001 7:35 pm

Pride of the legion does NOT give magical resistance..the only armor that does is the human flesh +5

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Postby Rail » Thu Jan 04, 2001 10:06 pm

Let's *not* "drop the point". This has been both a fun and interesting discussion.

There are items that do give magic resistance. The scroll will wear off the fighter for a patient mage, but magic resistance will not. This means the mage has to work on the fighter's magic resistance before he begins his offensive onslaught. An advantage for the fighter. An inquisitor, with carsomyr and all their special abilities, has the distinct advantage over all mages, here, and would be the best choice of the fighters in this duel, IMHO.
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Postby Caernarvon » Fri Jan 05, 2001 12:00 am

Of course, an inquisitor wouldn't be fighting my good-aligned mage in the first place, so it's a moote point Image

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Postby Caernarvon » Fri Jan 05, 2001 12:01 am

BTW, it's interesting to note that up until now we've been talking about mages. What about a sorcerer? I would think that they would have much better odds.