Kensai/Thief vs Fighter(Berzerker)/Thief

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Sly
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Kensai/Thief vs Fighter(Berzerker)/Thief

Postby Sly » Fri Mar 02, 2001 1:47 am

I started out a game with 4 of my buddies. We have a mage, archer, fighter/cleric, paladin, npc, and me. I want to play some sort of a Fighter Thief. I started out as a Kensai...but we didn't get very far yet, so I can always change. I realized that I can't wear any armor...I guess it didn't dawn on me that I can't wear a helmet or bracers. It would be nive to have at least leather when I level up as a thief (probably after lvl 9 fighter). It would also be nice to wear a helmet for the crit damage & the infravision or other magical qualities. The same goes for the gauntlets. I don't need them for the strength, but weapon expertise or something would be helpful. For the fighter classes that can wear armor I guess a Berzerker would be ok, or just a plain fighter.
The reason I chose a Kensai was for the Kai ability for Max damage which I want to on backstabs...works pretty good so far. Anyways...how much stuff is there in the game that would help to lower my armor class below 4 (18 dex AC 6, -2AC for Kensai). Rings, amulets, robes, etc. When I wear those for AC adjustment, then I won't be able to wear other ones to increase my thief abilities ... if there are such objects.
Any thoughts? Which fighter class would you play?

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Siike
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Postby Siike » Fri Mar 02, 2001 2:13 am

Kensai's description is incorrect, they get -4 AC insted of -2 AC. Odd that no one else hasn't noticed this.

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Postby Radek » Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:52 am

Almost none:
1. You can find an Ioun Stone in Asylum that imprves your AC by 1.
2. You can wear Cloaks/Rings/Amulets of Protection. There is 1 Ring and 1 Cloak of Protection +2 in the game.
3. You can wear Cloak of the Sewers.
4. You can wear rings that improve AC.
That's all. You have to accept AC 0.
I think kensai/thief is not a good idea because of bad AC which you cannot improve any way. Kensai/mage is ok, he can wear Robe of Vecna or Robe of Good/Evil Archmagi. This gives him AC 5 + kensai bonus = AC 3 = the best bracers in the game. Therefore, kensai/mages lose nothing. Kensai/thieves have no such possibility.

@Siike: My kensai always got bonus +2 as stated in the manual. Where you got bonus +4?

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Nighthawk
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Postby Nighthawk » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:53 am

I would recommend the Berzerker/Thief as the strongest all around Fighter/Thief dual class due to the amazing power of enrage. K/T is a lot of fun though. I've done 274 damage with a single backstab.

Kensai only get a 2 point AC bonus. With 18 dex they will start with AC 4.

The ultimate best equipment you can get with a Kensai is:

Helm: Rose? Ioun Stone (+1) Personally I like the Pale Green though.
Ring1: Ring of Gaxx (+2)
Ring2: Ring of Gaxx #2 or ROP +2 (+2)
Cloak: Cloak of Sewers or imported Cloak of Balduran (+1) Cloak of Mirroring doesn't give AC but is VERY nice.
Boots: Boots of Speed (+0 but you want them anyway) Image

Shield Amulet: Base AC to 5 (50 charges and can be recharged by selling and re-buying)
Potion of Defense: Base AC to 0 (limited supply)

For a K/T I recommend single-weapon skill and Katana. This will give you another +2 AC and if you use the Zerth blade you get another +1 (Celestial Fury is better though).

So, your AC can be -5 normally, -10 with the Amulet, and -15 with the potions. With what I consider to be the best equipment you'll be at -2/-7/-12.

If you're working in a party, don't dual your K/T until level 13. This gives you an extra +1/+1 hit/damage, another Kai, more hp, and most importantly +1/2 attack which becomes +1 attack with the Boots of Speed. This allows you to single wield for the AC bonus and still get 3 attacks/round.

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ROWDIN
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Postby ROWDIN » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:51 am

go with the swashbuk fighter 10.19 3+
to armour, damage, and thac0. who i think is the strongest fighter in the game. yours rowdin.

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ROWDIN
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Postby ROWDIN » Fri Mar 02, 2001 12:20 pm

my swashbuk, fighter, can duel,have 5 profs
in each he's got 4 attacks per round, and has a armour class of -14. yours rowdin

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Postby Nighthawk » Fri Mar 02, 2001 1:18 pm

Only AC -14? You should do much better than that with a Swashbuckler/Fighter. Also, since your thief class is the first class you give up 40 hp on 'Normal' difficulty. It's a trade off.

Anyway, Swashbuckler/Fighter is not what you want for a Fighter/Thief if you want to backstab.

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ROWDIN
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Postby ROWDIN » Fri Mar 02, 2001 3:08 pm

-19 with shield -20 with draw upon holy might,
and i never backstab. so how do you get better
than -14 when you duel two weapons. yours rowdin.

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Postby Nighthawk » Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:50 pm

I wasn't thinking about the dual wield, so you're right, it takes some work...

Armor of the Hart AC -2
Dex +4 AC
Bonus +3 AC
Helm of Balduran +1 AC
Ring of Gaxx +2 AC
Ring of Gaxx #2 +2 AC (pickpocketed)
Cloak of Sewers +1 AC
Defender of Easthaven +1 AC
Dakkon's Zerth Blade +1 AC

AC -17 dual wielding. AC -19 single wield, AC -21 with Sentinel. AC -19 dual wielding with Drow Full Plate, AC -23 with Sentinel.

Of course, beyond about -17 doesn't make a difference since the game only looks at -20 including modifiers and plate gives -3 or better to everything but crushing.

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ROWDIN
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Postby ROWDIN » Fri Mar 02, 2001 5:48 pm

two rings of gaxx is a bit much for one person i think its using the games oversites
to much. Also i don't want the dakkon or the cloak sewers. i'am better off with the girdle
of bluntness and the infamous cloak of mirroring, to make him more rounded has a pc.
thanks for your insites knighthawk. yours rowdin.

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Sly
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Postby Sly » Mon Mar 05, 2001 11:12 pm

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate it greatly. Now all I have to do is decide. Is Yoshimo pretty good thief? can you pick him up somewhere soon after you leave the Asylum? We don't have a thief..so I was gonna level up after level 9, but if we have a thief in the party..I'd like to wait till level 12.

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Nighthawk
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Postby Nighthawk » Tue Mar 06, 2001 9:12 am

Yoshimo is actually available before you leave the first dungeon. Also, Nalia or Jan can pick up the slack (with potions of thievery/perception if need be) until you start getting thief abilities.

If you go to 12, you definitely want to go that extra level to 13 for the extra attack. This will mean you have to be a little more focused on your thief skills, but I think you'll like the results.

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Sly
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Postby Sly » Fri Mar 09, 2001 9:20 pm

I just read in another thread that the penalties of wearing armor/not wearing armor have not been implemented. In addition to that I like the ability to wear armor, bracers, and helmets. I think that I may give up the max damage of the kesai for those abilities of the regular thief. I think that I will dual up to a thief after the fighter reaches level 9 otherwise we will be without a thief for way too long. I'm guessing that I will put 5+ into Katana and the rest into probably 2 weapon style. When I reach thief...I'll go for the short bow right away just so I can do something without getting beat on too much, until I get my fighters thac0.

Nighthawk - Where exactly do you find the ioun stone in the Asylum...we didn't find it.

Nighthawk - What is the Armor of the Heart, and where and when do you find it?

Nighthawk - You posted a bonus +3 AC...what's that from?


Thanks for the replies...any other suggestions? What would YOU do if you wanted a backstabing killing machine Image ?

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Postby Brink » Fri Mar 09, 2001 9:27 pm

Spoilerish
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The Ioun Stone can be found in the room with the many statues(the one where you are supposed to place the items found in the chest to its appropriate statue).The stone will appear as a reward in the chest once you've completed the puzzle.
The Armor of the Heart can be found in the Kuo-Toa Dungeon after summoning (and killing) the Demon Knights
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Postby Reidemeister » Fri Mar 09, 2001 11:17 pm

Actually, I found 1 piece of body armor that my kensai/thief could wear, and it blew my mind. For some reason he was able to equip the armor that you get when you loot Mae'Var, which has a decent AC on it (and bonus to hide in shadows)

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Postby Siike » Sat Mar 10, 2001 1:27 am

Kensai/Thieves can use shadow armor. With Kensai's -2 bonus to AC (yeah, I was wrong) total AC drops to 2. Berserker/Thief gets total AC of 1 with shadow dragon scale mail. I think +3 to hit and damage, -2 to speed factor and kai is far better than pros you get with Berserk/Thief. Besides, Kensai/Thief is far more cooler Image

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Siike
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Postby Siike » Sat Mar 10, 2001 1:33 am

Actually, K/T being able to use shadow armor is a bug, just like Kensai/Mage using any robes, they are considered armor too. They can wear it because Shadow armor can only be worn by thieves (Single, Multi and Dual-class) and it seems to override Kensai's restrictions. Same goes with robes. Does anyone else know any more armors that are only available to spesific class?

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Postby Giles the Sorcerer » Sat Mar 10, 2001 10:02 am

Beserk = immunity to maze, imprison, hold type spells, and mind spells.
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Postby Nighthawk » Mon Mar 12, 2001 8:06 am

Not to mention that they also get +2/+2 when berzerk which almost brings them to the level of the Kensai (less Kai).

Interesting about that armor though, that does bring the K/T up considerably IMO.

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Postby DeadlyVomit » Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:01 pm

I think Sly's change is a good one for the party...but it really sucks not having a good thief...hate running into those *bleep bleep* traps.. Image