Irenicus, Bhaal and BG3

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Lord Olecram
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Irenicus, Bhaal and BG3

Postby Lord Olecram » Thu Jan 25, 2001 7:28 pm

*Don't read this if you ain't finished w/ the game*

I went trough most of the game thinking Irenicus was Bhaal himself, only learning the true plot near the end, when Irenicus story is told...
one thing that disturbed me in the end sequence, though, is the voice of one "Bhaals's council" members, the very last to speak; I think it's the same as Irenicus voice! Now that left me thinking if you really were told the whole story, and if Irenicus got all his power through his efforts alone or were given some sort of, uh... "demonic" help? hehe... That said, what are your expectations for BG3, plot- and gameplay- wise?

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Autoriot
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Postby Autoriot » Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:11 pm

While were on the topic of BG3...What happened to Imoen? I didn't let Imoen back into my party after rescuing her, and I never saw or heard from her again. Did anyone keep her in their party and notice anything? Based on what I saw, I'm expecting her to be mrs. badass in BG3, unless of course I missed out on something by not letting her back into my party.

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Lord Olecram
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Postby Lord Olecram » Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:25 pm

No, you actually get her soul back after you kill Bodhi, so she remains with you 'til the end...

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Drakron Du´Dark
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Postby Drakron Du´Dark » Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:31 pm

Irenicus is dead, his soul is in the nine hells, so he does not come back.
Those guys are likey to be former High prists of bhall, their motivation...Spoiler.
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Well, is not a spoiler, we will find out on BG III.

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Autoriot
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Postby Autoriot » Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:40 pm

What about Cowled Wizards? They resembled Cowled wizards to me and we never did see the end of them.....

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Lord Olecram
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Postby Lord Olecram » Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:50 pm

It'll only be over when you kill Bhaal with you own hands

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Siike
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Postby Siike » Fri Jan 26, 2001 3:17 am

Ehh, isn't Bhaal supposed to be dead? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Time of Troubles, all gods (except Helm) were banished to Toril as avatars. Man named Cyric killed Bhaal in a duel and took his place as god.

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Postby Maurice » Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:26 am

Bhaal is indeed gone.

"The lord of Murder shall perish.
But in his wake he will spawn a score of mortal progeny."

This is the rhyme that gets said all the way back in good ol' Candlekeep.

Irenicus is also gone, down to the deepest pit of hell. The Cowled Wizards are gone as well, since Irenicus defeated them all - there were none in the Asylum, right?? I must presume their order has fallen apart.

But if you remember what Sarevok was trying to do, something similar could be happening to the Protagonist, even though he doesn't create these events for himself. Sarevok wanted death and destruction to rise to the station of Bhaal. The Protagonist might be moved in a similar situation by EXTERIOR forces. Maybe someone made it happen that Irenicus got into contact with the Protagonist ... in the end, being one of the katalysors for the Bhaal spawn to rise to power. Did he not gain the Slayer form in this game??

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Postby Thomas » Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:45 am

If I understood my "gamelore" correctly then Bhaal is trying to pull a "Mystra" on the realms. Hence he has instilled portions of himself into mortals, his many children to be precise. With each death of those children a small portion of the "fallen" god is added to a whole that presumably is the old god himself.

I would assume that the most evil and destructive of his children will be the vessel for his return. An evil god would like to inhabit the strongest and most potent body around. In the dream sequences in BG2 we learned that the protagonist is "strange amoung his kin", being able to remain free of will and succesfully resisting the possession of Bhaal. Heck! Even without a soul the protagonist manages to keep the "instinct", aka The Slayer, under check.

I thus make the prediction that in BG3 the protagonist will be the among the very last surviving children of Bhaal, with Imoen still being the trusty sidekick of course. Bhaal will return to the realms wich will lead to a disaster of cataclysmic proportions when the old god heads straight into battle against the younger and more powerful god Cyric who was the one who killed Bhaal the last time around.

This causes the protagonist to be faced with a certain dilemma. Bhaal is not whole, lacking the essence of the VERY powerful protagonist and Imoen (The levels reached in BG2 and the possible expansion makes these two the stuff of legend in AD&D) wich leads to an almost desperate hunt for these two (since he needs all the power he can get in order to face Cyric). Imoen will most propably die, I would guess that she sacrifices her own life to save the protagonists, and thus revenge is added to "motivation stew".

I strongly doubt that the protagonist will rise to godhood but will instead destroy the immortal portion of his or hers soul that carries the essence of Bhaal. Bhaal gets his butt kicked for the second time by Cyric and the protagonist is able to live out the rest of his or hers life in relative peace.

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Postby Xandax » Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:49 am

Originally posted by Maurice:
. The Cowled Wizards are gone as well, since Irenicus defeated them all - there were none in the Asylum, right?? I must presume their order has fallen apart.
[/b]


Well we actually don't know if the C.Wizards are all gone - mayby the ones in Spellhold are dead - but "Our numbers are many", as it is said when you get out of Irenicus' dungeon. Besides (haven't tried it) but if you haven got a permit to use magic, wouldn't you be able to get the C.wizards to spawn when using magic in the city - even after Irenicus has taken control of Spellhold.

But I don't think that the "wizards/priest" in the end is C.wizard - the idea that the are priest of Bhaal or some followers of Bhaal that want him to retur sounds more logical.

Hmm - just IMHO :-)
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Postby T'lainya » Fri Jan 26, 2001 12:12 pm

Something else to think about, you fight a lot of priests of Cyric in the game. Maybe Cyric doesn't want Bhaal to be respawned or any of Bhaals children to take his power.
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Postby Lord Olecram » Fri Jan 26, 2001 12:34 pm

Well Cyric killed the mortal form of Bhaal, but who's to say what happened to his essence?? He's a very powerful god after all, so I don't think he would be destroyed so 'easily'... I guess it'd be pretty cool if Bhaal finally returned in BG3, than the protagonist would finish the matter once and for all

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Postby Drakron Du´Dark » Fri Jan 26, 2001 1:14 pm

Several god died in the time of troubles.
Mystra-(midnight take the old name, but the old mystra is dead)
Bane.
Bhall.
Mystrul-(well, not he is on the "crown of horns")
Il-something(kill by shar,but she make like him so to comfuse his former pristhood)

Gods were make mortals in the times of troubles so they could die, you can kill a god even if not during the time of troubles but in order to do so, you must kill him in his domain and take his porfolio, that have happen recently by the nameless bard that kill monder and toke his porfolio.
And Bhall whats his offspring to die, so they can fuel his resurection, since your character is unwilling to follow that...

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
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- Waterdeep city constrution.

- Shadowdale low level adventure module.

- Rashmare /Thay high level adventure module.

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Postby Doltan » Fri Jan 26, 2001 2:32 pm

I thought the hooded people around the table were Harpers. They seem to like to meddle in things. I haven't read the books, so anyone have any information to enlighten me?
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Postby KN » Fri Jan 26, 2001 3:52 pm

I thought that they were Bhaals priests and worshipers and that they did not like the protagonist as a replacement for there dead god and were plotting his destruction.

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Postby Drakron Du´Dark » Fri Jan 26, 2001 4:16 pm

Well the harpers are, like the cowled wizards and the shadow thieves in the manual, page 29. its not very detaled but it is correct.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche
- Waterdeep city constrution.

- Shadowdale low level adventure module.

- Rashmare /Thay high level adventure module.

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Postby Doltan » Fri Jan 26, 2001 4:24 pm

Thanks Drak, but I've read the manual. I just haven't read the hundreds of Forgotten Realms books out there (many of which fall into the series "The Harpers" if I'm not mistaken).
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001