[Habib]

Yes, I said it and believe it.

the 10 percent acomulative bonus to spell failure is just amazing, and the magic resistance in the long run is very helpfull; I really dont know why this class is unanimously considered as one of the worst.

[Ares2382]

It's a matter of the penalty out weighing the benefits by about a billion to one.

There's only two advantages that a WS has. The magic resistance, and the 10% of arcane failure per hit.

Arcane failure sounds good in theory. However, most of the time, if you got past the wizards defenses enough that you can actually hit him then he's already dead anyways. Also, if you hit him, when he's casting spells then he'll miscast them anyways. So that special ability is really not that useful.

Magic resistance is nice, but you can only get to level 19 in SoA, which will give you only 38% magic resistance at the end of the game. If your goal is to get more magic resistance then be a monk, they get to 42% magic resistance at level 14 and it only goes up after that. And you'll get to level 14 monk much earlier then a lvl 19 fighter. By end of SoA (if you don't have ToB installed) your monk will have 66% magic resistance which is a heck of a lot better then 38% with a WS.

Your penalty of not using any magic item other then armor and weapon is a big one though. There are a lot of good rings, belts, cloaks and gauntlets that a fighter can use, that you won't be able to. No higher THACO and damage bonus from gauntlets, no regeneration from rings, no items that enhance your strength, unless you plan to use Crom Fayer (and you can't get that until late in the game).

If you really want the ultimate mage killer. Then an Inquisitor with a Holy Avenger is what you want.

[Gilad]

Arcane failure is actually good. It works even if you are not hurting the mage. I am playing a wizard slayer at the moment and it seems that I can cause arcane failure penalty through mantle spells for example. I was able to solo the lich in Crooked Crane at level 9. Although I left the crypt area, when he started to cast his first spell (timestop), and then I reentered (with the lich still having his protection spells on). For some reason I was never able to stop his first spell. Maybe because he started to cast the spell before I hit him. The hits during the spell casting seemed to have no effect. But any subsequent spell was influenced by the failure.

[Gilad]

I have found some old post from Register regarding the wizardslayer on sorceres.net forums. See below:
" Register
Sat, 9th Aug '03, 12:05am
Ok, I have been playing BG2+ToB with a wizard-slayer for about 20 times so I have been called here by Splunge to make my input.

1. The 10% spell failure stops everyt spell-like ability on everyone, and I mean EVERYONE!! This means that it'll get harder to rage if you meets a barbarian, set traps if you fights against thieves and most of all, it stops all kind of enemies spellcasting. Nethier Mellisan nor Irenicus is immune to this so it stops most of their effects totally as they WILL survive 10 blows. But remember this exception; spelltriggers and contegnicy(sp?) spells WILL work no matter the hits.

But remember, it only gives you 99% no matter the hits and IIRC each blow works for one hour.

2. Yes, stoneskinned liches will get effected, so will improved mantled Lavok. No matter your protection, you will always be affected by this hizadrous spell failure as long as you hit the enemy with the roll. This makes all these blows against a stoneskinned, fireshield protected mage actually useful.


And to sum up most of these later posts about if he should get dual-classed or not:
DON'T DUALCLASS HIM!! He will get more powerfull in the end, dualclassing ruins him totally.

Powergaming way:
If we say that you are on level 40 with your solo character, you can cheese him to hell(literally.)

Give him the Answerer(-2AC and -20% magic resistance on each hit on enemy), shield of Balduran(Beholder Rays), Vhailor's Helmet(simaclarum), Bots of Speed(Speed ) and the amulet of the Seldarine(bonus MR) he will have way over 120% magic resistance IIRC and give him three hardiness feats and a LOT of Greater Whirlwind attacks and he will hit much, hard and can't get hit with psychical damage and will resict almost all magics. He will also remove the magic resistance from dragons and such and the AC on other hard-to-hit enemies. Überpowerful indeed.

Roleplaying way:
Hard to explain what you should or should not do, it depends on your way to RP. Can't help you here."

[Habib]

"Arcane failure sounds good in theory. However, most of the time, if you got past the wizards defenses enough that you can actually hit him then he's already dead anyways. Also, if you hit him, when he's casting spells then he'll miscast them anyways. So that special ability is really not that useful."

Actually, as Gilad said, you dont need to "damage"; but to "Hit". So, hitting Stoneskin or mirror image still counts. What does NOT count? Whenever you hit an enemy and it says "weapon has no effect", this means, Protection from magical weapons, protection form normal weapons, mantle and improve mantle.

Now, this is when the character gets tactical, not like other fighters where you attack the mage and then wait, you have to see which protection the mage uses:

-If he cast protection from normal weapons; you hit him with an enchanted weapons (your default weapon surely)
-If he cast protection form magical weapons; you switch to the normal version of your enchanted equipment (as a Wizard slayer you should always carry an ordinary version of your weapon on your quick draw botton)
- If he cast mantle, just hit him with a +3 weapon or better
-If he cast improve mantle, just hit him with a +4 weapon.

So, in conclusion, if you have a highly enchanced weapon, and are equipped with a normal weapon, you can make the mage fail not his spells no matter what he does.

Some tactics to have in mind while playing Wizard Slayer;

-Maximise your attacks per round. (this means, dual weilding with either Kudane or Belm for the extra attack) Thats 4.5 attacks per round at level 13 without being hasted, wich means that the caster might get one spell out and after that he will have a 40 percent chance of falure for every future spells he will cast forever; another round and he will have a 90 percent failure rate. Basically you can defeat any caster in two rounds.

-Carry a normal version of you weapon.


"Magic resistance is nice, but you can only get to level 19 in SoA, which will give you only 38% magic resistance at the end of the game. If your goal is to get more magic resistance then be a monk, they get to 42% magic resistance at level 14 and it only goes up after that"

Monks cant wear armor; Specially the Human flesh armor, which gives you an extra 20 percent magic resistance and a bonus of +4 to saves.

"Your penalty of not using any magic item other then armor and weapon is a big one though"

I disagree; also wizard slayer can use magical shields, helmets, some boots (of avoidance) and some specific necklaces (like the one which gives you 10 percent magic resistance, the one that is awarded to you by the elf princes at the end of the game)

"There are a lot of good rings, belts, cloaks and gauntlets that a fighter can use, that you won't be able to. "

A Fighter isnt as item dependant as other clases, like thieves and mages.

"THACO and damage bonus from gauntlets,"

A Fighter has enought THACO to hit any monster reliably naturally

"no regeneration from rings"

Thats minor

"no items that enhance your strength"

Why would you need them? If you create a fighter you already give him good strength, and it can also be won during the game, or recieve the same benefits through buff.


"Then an Inquisitor with a Holy Avenger is what you want."

The holy avenger only dispells one spell that was already casted; a Wizard Slayer makes future casting useless, and makes the caster waste their turn.

My point is, The WZ is tough enough to take any melee enemy, and he also excells against casters. Therefore its more flexible and better overall


"Maybe because he started to cast the spell before I hit him"

No, the casting failure is calculated when they end casting, not when they start; I have interrupted a lot of mages in their first spell.


"And to sum up most of these later posts about if he should get dual-classed or not:
DON'T DUALCLASS HIM!! He will get more powerfull in the end, dualclassing ruins him totally."

Im currently dual classing him to a cleric at lever 13; we will see how it turns out

[roller1234]

He would be much more useful if there were be more enemies casting stoneskins. As for now, other than the two end game bosses(tactic'ed, ascension'ed) i can think of anything where his abilities would be useful.


Besides, he is weaker vs mages than other fighters, due to lack of (immunity) items and lack of innate abilities like berserker rage providing said immunities. In other words, he must hit them before they hit him or he is toast(stunned, put to sleep, imprisoned). The only way it can reliably happen is with ranged weapons, where this functionality was added with g3 mod. But regardless, switching between dual wield and ranged weapons is very cumbersome in this game, and if he is using one weapon, it must be crom, else he cant get access to str boosting items. Probably can work, but so far i see nothing but pain.

[Habib]

"He would be much more useful if there were be more enemies casting stoneskins. As for now, other than the two end game bosses(tactic'ed, ascension'ed) i can think of anything where his abilities would be useful. "

Are you talking about Bg2? Becouse in my game (no mods) every single mage cast either stoneskin and/or mirror image instantly when they see you (most commonly both at the same time).

"Besides, he is weaker vs mages than other fighters, due to lack of (immunity) items and lack of innate abilities like berserker rage providing said immunities."

Not true; he can use the Harmony shield; which grants inmunity to almost everything (hold, confusion, etc); and when he reachs the mage he can dualwield (remember, Wizard Slayer is a tactical fighter, that means micromanaging, not just charging). Also, fighters have really good saving throws, and if everything fails, you can have a cleric cast remove magic or remove paralysis. Also, there is Chaotic Command which can be cast before the fight.


"and if he is using one weapon, it must be crom, else he cant get access to str boosting items. Probably can work, but so far i see nothing but pain."

I disagree; I prefer to use other weapons; mainly longswords than Crom; the boost is just not worth the low damage of the weapon and if used in the off-hand the lack of extra attack that Belm and Kudane has (speccially usefull for Wizard Slayer).

I have used a Wizard Slayer through BG2 and TOB on insane difficulty, it was one of the easiest playthrough I ever did.

[roller1234]

Strength is not to be neglected, the difference between 19str, and a generic WS cant get it until ToB areas, but lets assume its a half-orc. the difference between 19 and 25 str is +4tohit and +7 damage.

"The Answerer +4"@19 str is doing 4.5base +4bonus +2 prof +7str=17.5damage
Crom@25 is doing 5base+3bonus+2prof+ 14str=24damage

thats 40% more damage at a higher hitrate other fighters will be doing, +damage bonuses from rage and kai and the WS will start getting difficulties to actually kill things compared to them, and thats assuming he did have the strength to be upgraded to begin with. Str is actually a dump stat due to how much str items are there in the game, and a WS has to max it. And if he is dual wielding (24@5apr crom solo= 17.5@7apr dual w/o crom) he cant use shields, which negates his use as a tank. And all that for mere mages. Korgan can solo liches right after recruiting. Like said im not disagreeing that this ability is useful, but im not seeing where it is applicable in the game. And the biggest problem of that all. Pure fighters are not worth the micromanaging time.

[Isilion]

a few things i'd like to add

about being a tank: by the time you have CF you're near the end of SoA and close to ToB, where havig a shield isn't all that useful anymore because most enemies (certainly those who need to be tanked) have such good THACO they will hit regardless of a shield. Dual wielding is, imo, the better damage mitigation because your higher dps means the enemy will strike less.

about micromanaging warriors: that's purely personal preference. some even like using a wand of missiles in between strikes

about usefullness of WS: I haven't played a WS yet so I don't know from personal experience, but it was said above that it can stop all spell-like abilities. I don't know what the game technically considers to be spell-like abilities, but traps and berserker rage were given as an example. Imagine preventing enemies using hardiness or GWW, that would definately have a big impact on the fight. And wailing away on a protected mage might render him useless more quickly than breaking through his defenses, since magic failure is applied on hit and not on damage. (I wonder if hitting a mirror image is considered a hit)

[Habib]

"(I wonder if hitting a mirror image is considered a hit)"

It is. If you can read "Hit" and is not followed by "weapon has no effect", it counts.

"Strength is not to be neglected, the difference between 19str, and a generic WS cant get it until ToB areas, but lets assume its a half-orc. the difference between 19 and 25 str is +4tohit and +7 damage."

You can get +3 strenght in Hell, so it would be the difference between 22 and 25.

""The Answerer +4"@19 str is doing 4.5base +4bonus +2 prof +7str=17.5damage
Crom@25 is doing 5base+3bonus+2prof+ 14str=24damage"

You are forgetting about the extra attack of wielding Belm or Kudane; which if you use Crom in the off hand you wouldnt get. (the extra attack also helps in the casting failure ability of the WS)

"damage bonuses from rage and kai and the WS will start getting difficulties to actually kill things compared to them"

I disagree; Fighters (even no set ones) are strong enough in this game to face any monster, the difficult enemies in BG2 are mages and enemies with special abilities (beholders, mind flayers, etc)

". Str is actually a dump stat due to how much str items are there in the game, and a WS has to max it"

I always Max Strenght when I create a Fighter; in fact, I always max strenght, dexterity and Constitution; and leave a high intelligence to be able to face mind flayers. Stats points are abundant in this game, I see no problem with maxing strenght.

"And if he is dual wielding (24@5apr crom solo= 17.5@7apr dual w/o crom) he cant use shields, which negates his use as a tank."

I disagree, you dont need the extra AC of shields to tank; tough enemies hit you anyway, and weak ones are weak. It helps, sure; but its not important; what is important about shields are their abilities.

"And all that for mere mages"

Mages are the strongest enemies in the game; The final enemy, and the thoughest fights (rune house and Kangax) involves spellcasters.


"Korgan can solo liches right after recruiting"

This cant be true,linches are not so easy as to be able to defeat them without high level equipment and a party.

So, tell me, If you think linches are so easy, Which is the most difficult creature to defeat in BG2 to you? (normal creature, not bosses)

[Habib]

Also, in TOB Fighter get a special ability in which they do 10 attacks per round for a limited time. This, to a Wizard Slayers means completely incapacitating any magic user Before he can end casting his first spell

[koz-ivan]

i'm actually a bit curious to try a wizard slayer, on paper i'm not a fan of the restrictions though.

they could rock and roll in a tutu environment, esp starting with a 19 str half orc. i suspect they'd be incapable of using bg1's tomes so that limits some of their power play potential.

i wonder how they do vs say dragons and or beholders, if that spell failure can interrupt / prevent those types of abilities, then the wizard slayer does in fact have some very dangerous upside.

in practice in bg2 any fighter type w/ the flail of ages backed with either a debuffing mage or keldorn + holy avenger is going to be ready to savage mages. they would retain the flexibility to use more items and perhaps be better served vs non mages.

i suppose at higher levels they'd get the most bang from alternating the crom w/ the protective off hand of choice. ie if you're using the whirlwind specials for burst attacks the off hand is only there for buffs.

[Isilion]

that's a good point
can anyone test to see if they can use the BG1 tomes?

[roller1234]

You can get +3 strenght in Hell, so it would be the difference between 22 and 25.

Getting that much str is actually a bug, one that the same g3 mod fixes. Additionally one of the stats, the bugged one i believe though, is not actually strength but a primary stat, something you will have to consider if going with that dual class, because a cleric will receive wisdom and not strength.

You are forgetting about the extra attack of wielding Belm or Kudane; which if you use Crom in the off hand you wouldnt get. (the extra attack also helps in the casting failure ability of the WS)

I made the dual wield calculation two lines below. Additionally if we are using Crom at all, something a WS dont have access for half of the game anyway and that includes Hell bonuses too, we are close to getting GWW, making dual wield pointless, attacks are capped at 10, and we already get that with whirlwind.

I disagree; Fighters (even no set ones) are strong enough in this game to face any monster, the difficult enemies in BG2 are mages and enemies with special abilities (beholders, mind flayers, etc)

These enemies are easy since there are immunities against their abilities. PfMW and Baldurans shield, of which the WS can use neither without loosing efficiency. Now the elder beholder, and Kangax even more, they imprison, the WS has no way of protecting himself against it, and must wait in the corner, while Korgan makes short work of them.

I disagree, you dont need the extra AC of shields to tank; tough enemies hit you anyway, and weak ones are weak. It helps, sure; but its not important; what is important about shields are their abilities.

Well yes, thats what we initially talked about. But tanking is very viable because enemies actually have thac0 around zero and once the tank has AC -30 and below he can breeze through anything not called Imroved Demogorgon or Improved Abazigail.

Ofc many, see the guy above us, have completely bad AC, (i would guess around -12, that much it is possible to get even in BG1) and get the impression tanking is bad, but they are not trying very well, or at all.

This cant be true,linches are not so easy as to be able to defeat them without high level equipment and a party.

It is very possible. Having a party is a liability actually. Sending his solo like said is vastly superior, his saves due to being a dwarf are so good he resists everything, and all the mass spells the lich is gonna cast on him will only damage one person not six. Just waiting it out, the lich will run out of spell and Korgan can take him out with bare hands and a couple of health potions. Vanilla liches are pathetic.

So, tell me, If you think linches are so easy, Which is the most difficult creature to defeat in BG2 to you? (normal creature, not bosses)

Uhh, vampires. Make short work of a surprised party and very difficult to protect against. Dragons with level drain, even worse. Their abilities are on-hit so WS wont help here.

But again i want to reinstate that this ability by itself is not bad, but occupying that character slots with other classes will benefit more than something which is ultimately a glorified Breach, the biggest problem with fighters is protecting them from said mages, or other nasties, there is simply too much stuff in the game that hurts, which is why fighter/mages and berserkers dominate.

[Habib]

"in practice in bg2 any fighter type w/ the flail of ages backed with either a debuffing mage or keldorn + holy avenger is going to be ready to savage mages. they would retain the flexibility to use more items and perhaps be better served vs non mages. "

Yes, but if you have a WS you dont need to have Keldorn or the other mage to help the fighter. The WS is a fighter that is not as good as the vanilla version (becouse of the restrictions) at being a fighter, but infinitely better at incapacitating and killing Wizards on his own. Also, there is nothing more satisfying than seeing a powerful mage trying to kill you only to realise that all his spells fail to cast.




"Getting that much str is actually a bug, one that the same g3 mod fixes. Additionally one of the stats, the bugged one i believe though, is not actually strength but a primary stat, something you will have to consider if going with that dual class, because a cleric will receive wisdom and not strength."

Thanks for the tip, I didnt knew that, How much Strenght would you get without the bug? Also, Im role Playing in this playthrough, so I will still be doing all the trials the evil way.

"Additionally if we are using Crom at all, something a WS dont have access for half of the game anyway and that includes Hell bonuses too"

Until you get it, you can use Belm or Kudane, which you as early as you want after Irenicus Dungeon.

"we are close to getting GWW, making dual wield pointless, attacks are capped at 10"

Yes, but only while you are using the ability; also, having more than 10 attacks would be usseless to a WZ fighting a mage, becosue you would have suprassed 100 percent failure chance.


"These enemies are easy since there are immunities against their abilities. PfMW and Baldurans shield, of which the WS can use neither without loosing efficiency"

In the case of the Balduran shield, you dont need eficiency, just the ability to stand in front of a beholder and wait for it to die, that shield is simply too cheap.
And PfMW is an ability only mages and duals-multy has; and can only be cast to themselves.


"Well yes, thats what we initially talked about. But tanking is very viable because enemies actually have thac0 around zero and once the tank has AC -30 and below he can breeze through anything not called Imroved Demogorgon or Improved Abazigail."

How do you get an AC that is so low?

"It is very possible. Having a party is a liability actually. Sending his solo like said is vastly superior, his saves due to being a dwarf are so good he resists everything, and all the mass spells the lich is gonna cast on him will only damage one person not six. Just waiting it out, the lich will run out of spell and Korgan can take him out with bare hands and a couple of health potions. Vanilla liches are pathetic. "

Thats a valid strategy, although kind of cheap.


"Uhh, vampires. Make short work of a surprised party and very difficult to protect against. Dragons with level drain, even worse. Their abilities are on-hit so WS wont help here."

I always thought that vampires where more annoying than threatfull (although, I have to say that I play vanilla, and not the difficulty mods you surelly play); becosue of level drain; and Dragons are Boses, you only find 4 of them in this game.


"But again i want to reinstate that this ability by itself is not bad, but occupying that character slots with other classes will benefit more than something which is ultimately a glorified Breach"

Glorified Breach?
Breach takes away one protective spell of the enemy, and takes 1 turn to cast; The WS ability makes all (protective or offensive) present and future spells to fail in a speed that equals 10 percent per attack per round.

The WS ability doesnt even begins to compare to a simple Spell like Breach.


I think that we can both agree that the WZ is greately underrated and is not umplaylable or even bad.

[roller1234]

Well thats the thing, Breach removes all combat related protections at once, with gear (obtainable early game) its instant cast, and with alacrity it is possible to cast multiple of them in one round if thats desired, pretty much keeping the entire field completely open to melee damage. Casting one right before a regular fighter activates gww, or just hasted dual wield, and the mage is toast, if that fighter is Keldorn even more so, mages have so little hp that the melee damage output often bypasses their contingency threshold and kills them downright. This pretty much means that the only dangerous mages are those immune to lvl5 spells and those who are not playing by the rules and have awesome protection no matter what. Aside from a few select bosses, this leaves only the liches and rakshasas, and neither are particularly threating. Heck higher level clerics turn liches.

But yes, i definitely agree that in theory WS ability is pretty hax. I would say that playing with mods like tactics or scs with installed options buffing generic mobs, would bump the value of that character significantly. In case the party doesnt rest often. A tob sorc is able to cast about 72(seventy-two) breaches per day.

[roller1234]

How do you get an AC that is so low?

yeah tactics Valen with level drain is pretty evil, literally. but level drain also reduces HP too and then the fighter dies to something embarrassing As for AC well there are a lot of items with stackable AC bonuses, including rings and cloaks ( like gaxx ring) plus bard song, giving -4 ac no question asked, which is pretty instrumental in getting permanent -24. Would help a WS anyway since it also gives +4tohit/+4todamage and protection from some status effect, i dont remember which ones. From there there are hidden AC modifiers, full plate gives a hidden bonus, averaging at about -4, that would be -28 ac. Then spells which actually give penalty to the attacker. Improved Invisibility reduces rolls against protected character by +4 so that would make our effective AC already -32, then Blindness, another 4, then minor stuff like chant etc, pretty easy to get ac to stellar values.