Finished it, didn't like it.

This forum is to be used for all discussions pertaining to BioWare's Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.
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fable
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Postby fable » Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:30 am

Originally posted by Armisael
I always got the crap kicked out of me by slimes in Ultima VII, but I still think of the Avatar as a godlike figure... I feel vilified by the fact that he is one come the end of Pagan.

Edit: actually, on a similar subject, why didn't the individual NPC business schedules from Ultima VII/Part II ever catch on? :mad:


Agreed on both points. But then, Pagan to me was Garriott's giving up on roleplaying and moving to action games. Attacks that keep coming and kill you if you try to search your backpack for a scroll? (Of course, enemy NPCs always have their scrolls ready when they need 'em.) Stones paths over a river you have to land on exactly, or you die? :rolleyes:

As for the business schedules thing, I've seen it implemented well in some NWN fan modules. A few players at least were vocal in their complaints. So there's your source for why it was ignored by other developers. Shame, that.

I think the point that people are missing (or perhaps the comments were deleted )

Read up, again. What were deleted were spam: pointless, off-topic posts that belonged down in Speak Your Mind (SYM). It's a rule of the site owner's--but you know that already, Kame, being quite a SYM spammer on occasion, yourself. :D ;) Not that I do that! *cough*

Ha, I understand there was some flaming done in this thread? Alas, I missed it.

Didn't miss much, Mordorman. Just stopped a member from telling you you had no business being on this board with such attitudes, and should leave. I suspect he didn't really read your post, but assumed you simply hated the game and were posting to be provocative.

- Leveling up is no fun at all. There is no way to specialize your character in a meaningful way. The skills or feats you choose don’t matter very much in gaming experience.

This IMO was another good point of yours, and it tallies with my memories of Ultima IX. Basically, however you improved your stats when you started U9, when you finished it you had identical stats, because there was so little to raise. KotoR is nowhere near as bad, but in many respects it reflects a similar thinking. You really had to choose foolishly to select jedi powers and party members that wouldn't allow you to walk through your quests. It appears that most enemies, even dark jedis, were no match for teams that got by without powers. Since skills were so strongly cushioned among your party members, your PC didn't need 'em at all.
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Postby blueteeth » Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:16 am

sacrificing everything for looks

I agree with Fnord that lately developers have been putting way too much effort in increasing the realistic look of games instead of paying more attention to gameplay.

I personaly find interesting to look at a realisticly looking game for 5 mins but what really ties me to the game play is the story and how it evolves. I don't care if the game has no shadows or the water and leaves are not perfect and don't ruffle with the wind. games are following the Hollywood model were it's all about the looks and visual effects. heck, look at the list of jobs posted at Bioware. they "need" graphic designers and developers that can produce realistic folliage. what about hiring a really good team of writers!

it's all our fault. we keep buying it. if we didn't, they'd have to change.

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Postby MordorMan » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:06 pm

I think Kameleon might be right in pointing out that the lack of depth (let's call it that way) might have been caused by the KOTOR’s origins as a console game. There happens to be a piece on the gamebanshee home page about this subject, read it if you like:
PCRPG's: Man the Lifeboats!

Well, I honestly did not know these consoles where such a big thing nowadays. I mean, practically everyone I know owns a PC but I know only one person that has a console (an old playstation). Is it really true that more console games are sold than PC games? Amazing! And not a very good development, if you ask me. I really dislike mind numbing games like Dungeon Siege (I made the mistake of buying that one), you might as well unplug your console and just watch television if you want that kind of experience.
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Postby Kameleon » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:36 pm

Originally posted by MordorMan
I think Kameleon might be right in pointing out that the lack of depth (let's call it that way) might have been caused by the KOTOR’s origins as a console game. There happens to be a piece on the gamebanshee home page about this subject, read it if you like:
PCRPG's: Man the Lifeboats!


Thanks for that, I rarely venture out of forums nowadays :D A fascinating article, and very true, though it fills me with regret as to the fate of BIS :( Hopefully, though, we will continue to get games of the calibre of the Baldur's Gate and Fallout series in the future.

And don't even get me started on Dungeon Siege, I loved Diablo 2 but DS was probably the worst RPG I've ever had the bad luck to play.
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Postby Emancipator » Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:22 pm

I think my experiences on linearity of KotOR are somewhat like this...

You are in a corridor. With beautiful murals on the walls. The corridor is about 100 metres long, with a door every 20 metres. You can enter any door, in any order, at any speed. However, at no point does the corridor bend or fork, and none of the rooms lead into futher rooms.

(is dx2 worth $50?)
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Postby hannibal360 » Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:14 pm

I have to agree and disagree. Agree to the fact that designers are more into making the game look realistic and less on gameplay/storyline BUT I have to disagree in the fact that you cant say you werent astunished at the amazing graphics of the first unknown world cutscene ( that by the way made me wanna strap on a speedo and jump at the screen :D ).....
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Postby fable » Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:47 pm

Originally posted by hannibal360
BUT I have to disagree in the fact that you cant say you werent astunished at the amazing graphics of the first unknown world cutscene.....


But what's so amazing about watching a movie on your PC? Pay any animation house enough, and they'll be glad to turn you out a nice little cutscene. It's the easiest place to sink money and be sure of a return. Too bad it has nothing to do with gameplay.
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Postby Kameleon » Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:13 am

Originally posted by Emancipator
I think my experiences on linearity of KotOR are somewhat like this...

You are in a corridor. With beautiful murals on the walls. The corridor is about 100 metres long, with a door every 20 metres. You can enter any door, in any order, at any speed. However, at no point does the corridor bend or fork, and none of the rooms lead into futher rooms.


Exactly.

And the Unknown World is f'ing gorgeous, I would quite happily go on my holidays there, complete with cuddly gizka :D
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Postby Fnord » Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:27 am

I think the point that people are missing (or perhaps the comments were deleted ) is that KotOR is a console game, with a PC version.

I (briefly) considered pointing this out as well, but I tend to get flamed to Hell and back for even hinting that the console might be a slightly less mature platform (elsewhere, not on Banshee).

I think the reason I was so unimpressed with DX2 is also largely due to the fact that the game is essentially a console port. The interface, dialogue, gameplay, and level of detail were all tuned down to appeal to the Xbox's younger audience, and yet suggesting that the console-oriented development has anything to do with the game's lackluster feel will draw fire from just about anyone on the official forum. :rolleyes: I mean, come on, the revised crosshair is a big, fat "X"...

One other thing I meant to mention in my previous post, but forgot to: I thought KotOR started off pretty well, but it was all downhill from the time you leave Dantooine on. And why? Because KotOR relies on the tried-and-true console theme of "find the thingies, fight the bad guy, conclude the game." When you're first starting out on Taris, you're unsure how the rest of the game is going to unfold. Once you set out from Dantooine, though, the whole rest of the game is little more than an utterly predictable quest to find all the star maps. There's, what, seven worlds in KotOR? Well, your only reason for visiting five of them is to find star maps. Everything else you do on those worlds is entirely insignificant. No more surprises, no more plot twists. The game speeds (albeit slowly) to a pretty unsatisfying finish. It's like playing Zelda all over again, only not as good.
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Postby Emancipator » Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:57 am

BUT I have to disagree in the fact that you cant say you werent astunished at the amazing graphics of the first unknown world cutscene


Yeah, the graphics are actually very cool, which is why i said that the walls of the "Corridor" are covered with amazing murals. I agree that it is a beautiful game, but you are limited in what you can accomplish in terms of gameplay. :(
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Postby MordorMan » Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:26 pm

Maybe the future of PC roleplaying does not lie in the traditional single player games but in MMORPG’s. The concept has some great advantages: a continuously changing world, real interaction between players and above all constant new input from the dungeon master(s). I can imagine the really good dungeon masters becoming famous like DJ’s or rock stars. And what a change it would be to show off your cool looking armour by parading in front of your friends in stead of posting a screen shot on a forum. :)

I have never played a MMORPG however. The games that have been released up till now are not mature yet, if I understand correctly. I thought about going along with Star Wars Galaxies but the high price and the criticism have put me off.

Thinking about the future of MMORPGs makes me jealous of the people living in the future. I’ll bet some time from now you won’t be playing sitting in a chair but standing on a sensitive running belt wearing a virtual reality suit and waving a stick. You wouldn’t be awarded skill points anymore but would have to use your own running/fighting/sneaking/conversation/spell memorization/lore skills to get ahead. Now wouldn’t that be great? Getting some physical and social exercise while playing… :D
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Postby hannibal360 » Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:22 pm

Yes your right and thats the only thing I didnt like about KOTOR. The lvls are only based around the missions you have to do, so there is no options of exploring (well maybe some but you know what I mean). All the interactions are set for the missions and the ones that are not are just simple copmment over and over again....Well with all its flaus its a great game and I enjoyed playing it.....I would like another game like this one to come out with more exploring though.
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Postby Kokyho » Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:39 pm

Well, my first time through, I was in awe at the cool cut scenes and the overall length the game.
Took me three days to get my butt off Taris, yikes...but once I got a handle on how to use my side characters during battles I plowed through it. I do think some of the dialog is a bit dry and doesn't seem to matter what you do in certain situations, it always is the same. It would be nice that you'd have to live with a decision all the way till the end and it made an impact somehow and in different ways everytime. Playing dark is easy, not hard to figure out what you need to do, light side wasn't so obvious which I liked, plus you seem to become a bit more involved with side quests which can be OK mostly albiet a bit tedious and lengthy. Great game though. You made some great points as to some of its faults, but overall its fun and involving. :cool:
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Postby Emancipator » Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:36 am

you seem to become a bit more involved with side quests which can be OK mostly albiet a bit tedious and lengthy


Spoilers!!! (Highlight)

Have you ever done Manaan last? Then tried doing the Genoharadan Sidequest? You have to go back to almost every planet, and find who wasn't there before...very tedious.
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Postby Xandax » Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:55 am

Personally - I can only agree much with the original poster.

I played it through - and although I liked it, I've not even bothered to play it more times.

It was linear - and being able to visit the planets in a different order doesn't do much for the linearity. But this is a problem with most games these days - it is difficult to make a open game (Daggerfall/Morrowind style), also because you risk "loosing" the players interest because they don't know what to do. Most all CRPGs are very linear because they all need to bring you to the end point, mostly the freedom just consists in freedom to choose when to do the main plot quest.
But that I felt lacking in KotOR, there were not many sub-quests not involved in the main-plot quest.

It was to short. This is a fault with many games these days - the trend is that games need to be short and intense rather then immense and complex. A game on 4 CDs that can be played through on a weekend (30-40 hour) is ... well - to short in my oppion. Way to short.
My personal oppinion as to why this is the case, is partly due to the technology. Games are more complex to make these days - so there is fewer resources to make the gameplay better because a graphics engiens, graphics design and sounds/music takes up a bigger portion.

It was to easy. Puzzles and fights were no challenge at all.

On the plus side - the game had excellent graphics and sounds - but personally - I prefere gameplay over "fluff" such as full voice over. I rarely listened to the voice anyways, but just read and clicked through.

Nice and beautiful game - but lacking in the gameplay department.
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Postby Sethernis » Sun Jan 25, 2004 2:21 pm

I'm commenting on the first orginal post, by Mordorman
When you complain about that the People and NPC's didn't feel alive, i couldn't disagree with you more! The script is very very high standard, so is the voice acting. Imagine how it feel to try to describe emotions in Wookie language, you have to see beyond then that, Mordorman.
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Postby Oye » Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:55 pm

Just have to say that I agree 100% with the first post. I thought I was alone :(

That said, playing KOTOR made me reinstall planescape:torment, so I'm happy as a, uh, tormented amnesiac.
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Postby Armisael » Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:54 am

Originally posted by Oye
That said, playing KOTOR made me reinstall planescape:torment, so I'm happy as a, uh, tormented amnesiac.
You too, huh? Whenever I play a game that falls short of my expectations, it always seems to end with me reinstalling an older one that far exdeeded them...

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Postby Xandax » Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:17 am

Originally posted by Sethernis
I'm commenting on the first orginal post, by Mordorman
When you complain about that the People and NPC's didn't feel alive, i couldn't disagree with you more! The script is very very high standard, so is the voice acting. Imagine how it feel to try to describe emotions in Wookie language, you have to see beyond then that, Mordorman.


Voice acting and Voice over are only tools to help build athmosphere. They aren't substitutible for good and unprecidtable dialog, wich some feel were lacking (I know I do).

It takes good, "realistic" and unpredictable dialog to create the illusion of live NPCs - not the fluff of "voice acting" or good graphics. Even movie characters can be "dead" eventhough they are real on the screen, becaue of poor dialog.
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Postby MordorMan » Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:29 pm

Yup, that is about what I meant. But I have to admit I compared it with the dialogs in BG, which is a pretty high standard by all means. I felt that the characters in BG had more 'dimension', so to speak.
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