Why Paladins?

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Opalescence
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Why Paladins?

Postby Opalescence » Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:39 am

I've noticed that Paladins appear to be getting the short end of the stick every time. Look at all the horrid restrictions! First, they HAVE to be Lawful Good. Next, they have to STAY Lawfully Good. Third, if they ever STOP doing so, they FALL, losing all abilities! Fourth, they try to be a figher/cleric but fail on all counts; they do NOT have the combat abilities of a fighter NOR the casting ability of a cleric. Fifth, their special abilities CANNOT make up for these losses: Lay on Hands is decent as a healing ability but it's not as though Clerics can't cast healing spells, and disease and fear resistence is useful but not enough of a benefit to counterbalance the drawbacks. Why should I pick Paladin over a dual-classed Figher/Cleric? Even the kits aren't really that much better than the F/C, they give up (usually) turn undead and LoH for abilities that, while interesting, barely make the kit balanced, but do not add any additional power to it!

In a similar vein, why Bards? I don't see anything a Bard can do that a Wizard or Sorceror, or a dualled fighter/wizard, or a dualled rogue/wizard couldn't do better!
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moltovir
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Postby moltovir » Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:58 am

I won't reply on your first statement, as I have no experience with Paladins myself. But bards, well, in the hands of a skilled player they can annihilate every threat in a matter of seconds. Many people think the bard is a weak fighter/mage, but in fact he's an extremely strong. First, the bard has a rogue's experience table and gets level-ups extremely fast, giving him access to level-6 spells in the early state of the game. A bard's thac0 and spell selection will always be weaker than that of the F/M, but you have to learn to use them in the right combination. The quick level-ups also allow you to get your first HLA very quickly, and UAI overwrites all item restrictions, so your bard can actually wield Carsomyr or the Staff o/t Magi. A dualwielding bard can get up to 8 attacks per round with Improved Haste, can lay Time Traps giving him a 10-second personal Timestop spell, can protect himself from all possible threats with Stoneskin, Spell Immunity, Mirror Image, ... The weak thac0 can be a problem, but there's nothing Tensers Transformation can't do. If you have a bard in your party, he can also use the bard song to give you additional bonuses (the Skald song gives all your party members +4 to Hit and +4 damage!). I strongly advise you to solo a blade or skald through the game. You'll have to learn to use every resource available, but the satisfaction you get from it is heavenly.
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Postby Squee » Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:00 am

...

it can be fun to roleplay sometimes too you know... and I've got three words for you

Carsomyr + greater whirlwind
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Postby Squee » Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:02 am

...

the bard got a really fun stronghold and he can use all items on a certain level, thats nice.... evil bard with carsomyr and harp of pandemonium makes you into a final boss guy... you wield a terrible blade and all enemies are thrown away by you powerfull magics... cool... :cool:
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Postby Devilock » Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:47 am

The only experience with paladins I have is from having Keldorn in my party, and even though his stats aren't that good (without the gauntlets of dexterity he is a pretty poor fighter) he makes fighting mages really easy, without having to cast Breach and Spellstrike 7,000 times, and his ability to cast True Sight means your mages don't have to, freeing up space for other level six goodness.

On top of that, saving throw bonuses and immunity to nasty Hold and Charm spells doesn't hurt either!

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Postby lompo » Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:54 am

Paladins are powerful! Probably the most powerful single class fighters and one of the strongest class overall.
But you can't compare them with a F/C, they are not a spellcasting class, they get some spells as a plus.
But consider a paldin:they get the same hp/Thac0 progression of fighters, they can't master but unless you have the mastery patch installed thet isn't a real drawback, they get the same HLA of fighters plus summon Deva (!!!!), plus they get bonus to S.T. and T.U., some abilities/resistance and they can cast spells; it's true that their casting ability isn't that of a cleric, but you get very useful spells that a fighter would dream (armour of faith, sanctuary, Duhm!!!, some very useful 4th lev spells). All this makes them much more valuable than a plain fighter.
Plus thay can use Carsomyr and/or the Purifier (in ToB), and being of good alignement thay can use Azuredge (great anti undead weapon).
If we consider the kits, the power of paladin increases even more: I've never played a Cavalier but he has some nice immunities/resistances, but take into consideration the UH, immunity to hold and level drain (plus extra dmg to undeads) means that you can breeze through SoA (which is full of undead/vampire); the Inquisitor lose most of the typical paladin's bonus, but he gains immunity to charm and hold plus can cast true sight (lev. 5 or 6 spell) and the most powerfull (if well used) anti magic spell: an instant cast dispell magic at such an high level that has practically 100% to succeed.
In my opinion a paladin is the best tank/main fighter of any non evil aligned party, but they fit different role from clerics or F/C or other spellcasting class.

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Postby Nightmare » Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:58 pm

Paladins are lots of fun, and are very powerful, esp. the Inquistor class. Not only do your mages no longer need to memorize any invisibility-dispeling spells, Inquistors can cast True Sight instantly, while mages take the whole round.

Mid-level Inquistors have a good chance of dispeling any protections a Lich has with their Dispel Magic.

Plus, with Carsomyr, nothing stands in your way.
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Postby The Great Hairy » Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:42 pm

Beyond the number-crunching side of things, ROLEplaying a Paladin or Bard is just pure fun.

As a Paladin, my PC is noble, honest, honourable, good and kind but stern and unforgiving towards evil. As a Bard, my PC is flightly, playful, greedy, easily distracted by treasure (oooooh, shiny!!), tries to be helpful and generally breaks into song all the time.

Roleplaying through the game means that you experience the game itself in a completely different manner with different PCs. I would heartily endorse trying it, it is a lot of fun!

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Postby Deadalready » Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:19 am

Bards and Paladins are strong in their own right for what they do an inquisitor with Carsomyr equipped is a powerful person indeed.

I agree that some of the classes seem a little weak but more often than not trying one out is a surprise. The Blade in particular is awesomely fun and quite powerful, good use of weapons and the offensive spins are quite useful.
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Postby Elessar-NWN » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:23 am

I took down Adalon 1-on-1 in the Underdark with a Paladin armed with Carsomyr+5 and Drow Plate +5

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Postby Luis Antonio » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:31 pm

with a bard, solo or in a team, I can destroy the vampires stronghold without assistance. with a bard i can sing cumulative songs (specially with the skald) and have a cleric hitting like a fighter and a berserker/wizard slayer/plain fighter hitting like a kensai. With a bard you can roleplay an evil/good/neutral character and you'll always be strong with that. With a bard you have the strenght of the mage, the versatility of the thief and some hitting strenght. What you want to excel him? A Kensai-mage-thief?

Regarding Paladins... I dont like them much either, but they can be destructive. A Undead Hunter is a good choice, and the Inquisitor has a very good dispell magic hability.
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Postby Cuchulain82 » Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:12 pm

SOA & Undead Hunters

I played through SOA with an Undead Hunter and it was pure destruction. I don't like Paladins, I didn't think I would like playing one, but I wanted to give it a shot because I was sick of Keldorn and I wanted Carsomyr. I really dislike dealing w/level drain, so the UH was an easy choice.

Say what you will about Paladins being annoying, boring to roleplay, etc.- I agree with everything. However, I absolutely beat the snot out of everything that got in my way, pretty much from the beginning. I don't think I'll play one again, but I was amazed at how the UH just waded through everything in SOA. Maybe for TOB the inquisitor would be better.
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Postby Phantom Lord » Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:34 am

Like others said, Paladin and Bard are great roleplaying classes, in PnP they're real fun to play or have in the group. The Paladin simply is the paradigma of the lawful, religious knight.

The whole "powerful through stats" point of view is not really important in the game. 90% of success depends on tactics, not on numbers anyway. The major advantage of the Paladin in terms of abilities is his right to use a holy avenger (that's a holy sword, Carsomyr is one) at a certain level. Due to the inflation of super-powerful weapons in BG2 this doesn't shine as much as it should, but even in BG2 Carsomyr is still considered one of the best weapons around.

Now imagine a Paladin with Carsomyr in a world where magical weapons are rare and weapons above +3 are on the verge of being unique. A Paladin equipped with a holy sword - as a reward for decades of loality - is a force on his own. That's pretty much the picture ...

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Postby Cuchulain82 » Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:03 am

One other nice thing about Paladins and Bards is how straightforward they are in terms of leveling. I like powergaming, so I am constantly debating when to Dual, how long I want to wait for abilities, etc. Bards and Paladins, because they can't Dual, are powerful but still allow good roleplaying
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Postby Hamletxx82 » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:48 am

I finished the game with a cleric/mage ,fighter/thief, evoker and last with cavalier class paladin. I think the cavalier class is the most powerful kit the game can offer.First immune to poison ,it means you can walkthrough cloud kill and poison based spells without suffering. Nearly the same saving throws with a fighter and gain % 50 magic resistance with Carsomyr.With the belt u bought from a trader in Trademet he s almost immune to the most powerful spells like Abi-Dalzims Horrit wilting.+3 damage and hit to demonic and dragonic creatures.İt means u can finish Watcher's Keep Dungeon by only using this class especialy in the third level where every kind of demons roams.I strongly recommend you to play with a paladin only to oppose Demogorgon. The most important and strongest way of it is dominance above dragons. My cavalier in the game alone himself finished Jierdan Firkraag, the black dragon of Irenicus, the one u oppose in nine hells , the green dragon in Abizagals Lair and Abizagal himself (I confess Draconis and the red dragon in Watchers Keep killed me many times.) At high levels a paladin can summon Deva and gain powerful combat abilities like whirlwind. carsomry +6 and whirlwind combo is really deathly.With its high saving throws and magic resistance a paladine is effective aganist liches to o.O f course weak aganist only imprisoment and time stop spell. U say lay on hands cant compare with the healing specialities of a cleric but you r wrong .At high levels in the very thick of combat lay on hands heals lots of hit points and requries no spell casting time whenever could be very vital through game.Fighter /clerics could be good but none of them oppose alone to most difficult bosses of the game like a paladine.Being lawful good is not so bad in the atmosphere of the game.In this ırony you save lost of lives although you re Bhaal's progeny-The God of Murder'S son.
I never played with a Bard so ı cant say anything about that.

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Luis Antonio
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Postby Luis Antonio » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:20 am

Hamlet, try the bard. The magic skills, mixed with the song and some cheese- not heavy ammount - make the bard skills a must have for SoA. I've soloed and played a whole bard party. In the beggining it is a pain, but after you get mislead...

Can you imagine a horde of misleaded bards atacking the vampires? I havent suffered any damage - and bodhi was easy to beat.
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Postby Erenor » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:30 pm

[QUOTE=Hamletxx82]At high levels in the very thick of combat lay on hands heals lots of hit points and requries no spell casting time whenever could be very vital through game.[/QUOTE]

This has saved many a character of mine in this game. Lay on Hands is indeed a miracle when one of your characters is close to death and then instantly healed a lot of HP. Paladins are just fun to play, even though you really have to want to be good to play them all the time. No killing innocents just for fun and then running to a temple to up your rep again and again. The loss of abilities for a paladin sucks the big one. I just wish they had Anti-Paladins in some of these BG series games. The closest you can get is an evil fighter with lots of magical gear.
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Luis Antonio
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Postby Luis Antonio » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:29 am

[QUOTE=Erenor]This has saved many a character of mine in this game. Lay on Hands is indeed a miracle when one of your characters is close to death and then instantly healed a lot of HP. Paladins are just fun to play, even though you really have to want to be good to play them all the time. No killing innocents just for fun and then running to a temple to up your rep again and again. The loss of abilities for a paladin sucks the big one. I just wish they had Anti-Paladins in some of these BG series games. The closest you can get is an evil fighter with lots of magical gear.[/QUOTE]

Download tactics, it has the anti-paladin kit, if I'm not mistaken.
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Postby Opalescence » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:48 pm

Yeah, but the Anti-Paladin can't "fall" for doing good deeds, per se, and in my humble opinion isn't as strong as the real Paladin, as he's missing his turning ability and casting ability, since he's a Fighter kit. Not banging on Tactics, it's a great mod, but the hardcoding of Paladins makes it really hard to make an Anti-Paladin that "works correctly".

I suppose a Paladin's got its uses, although personally I can never be so goody goody (I LOVE killing random civilians!). Anyway, I'll try out the Bard, sounds fun to me. Either that or get the Keto NPC mod :D .
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Postby Erenor » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:30 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Download tactics, it has the anti-paladin kit, if I'm not mistaken.[/QUOTE]

What is tactics and where can I get it?!
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