The Matrix...Reloaded

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Postby Georgi » Sun May 18, 2003 5:50 am

Originally posted by Aegis
much of the what was said, or even done, seemed to be nothing more then filler


Aha, but how do you know they're not going to become relevant in Revolutions, eh? ;) Agent Smith might seem to be peripheral, but (spoiler) the version of him that gets into the real world is pivotal to how the ending plays out, and it looks like in the next movie too. And who wants to bet that Trinity gets pregnant? ;) Oh, just a tip for anyone who hasn't seen it yet - stay until the end of the credits for a sneaky peek at Revolutions. And anyone who didn't... ha ha. :p

I have to say, I really enjoyed Matrix Reloaded, although I would agree with the criticisms about it being mainly an SFX movie. There were great action sequences though, and surprisingly enough, quite a few comedy moments in the script. Trying to work out all the plot stuff made my brain hurt though. :( :D I think it's unfair to say it was unexplained though, since obviously they're saving the rest for the final part.

Oh, and after the action sequences, Hugo Weaving was the best thing about the movie. He was great as Agent Smith. :D

Oh, and I wasn't all that impressed by Dark City when I saw it.
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Postby Mister Popo » Sun May 18, 2003 6:33 am

Well I had the privilage to see it's first show in the Netherlands and although I was blown away (which wasn't hard to acomplish as I had goosebumps when I heard the opening theme) my main point of criticism is the scene with the Architect.

It was beautifully filmed but because of the commotion in the frame, the plot, which is then revealed, was partly missed.

Well, at least it's an argument to go and watch it a second time :D

BTW everybody has to agree the Agent Elrond was really good!

Owh and I hated the kid that kept following Neo around! He's my new Dobby! (or JarJar Binks, or Wesley Crusher)



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Postby Aegis » Sun May 18, 2003 6:52 am

Originally posted by Georgi
Aha, but how do you know they're not going to become relevant in Revolutions, eh? ;) Agent Smith might seem to be peripheral, but (spoiler) the version of him that gets into the real world is pivotal to how the ending plays out, and it looks like in the next movie too. And who wants to bet that Trinity gets pregnant? ;) Oh, just a tip for anyone who hasn't seen it yet - stay until the end of the credits for a sneaky peek at Revolutions. And anyone who didn't... ha ha. :p

I have to say, I really enjoyed Matrix Reloaded, although I would agree with the criticisms about it being mainly an SFX movie. There were great action sequences though, and surprisingly enough, quite a few comedy moments in the script. Trying to work out all the plot stuff made my brain hurt though. :( :D I think it's unfair to say it was unexplained though, since obviously they're saving the rest for the final part.
I do agree that the action was filmed quite well, but I also think they dragged it on far too long, and that is what leads me to thinking that most of the script was merely filler. As for the spoiler and the other thing you brought up, I can say this now that one of them is incredably cliche, and has been on my mind since the news of sequels were released.

One last thing, and a big beef for me. The way they ended it. I don't care if you have a sequel coming, I do not go to a movie to see the words "To Be Concluded" run across the screen at the very end. Nothing pisses me off more.

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Postby Ode to a Grasshopper » Sun May 18, 2003 7:07 am

Originally posted by Aegis
One last thing, and a big beef for me. The way they ended it. I don't care if you have a sequel coming, I do not go to a movie to see the words "To Be Concluded" run across the screen at the very end. Nothing pisses me off more.
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Postby Georgi » Sun May 18, 2003 7:15 am

Re. the scene with the Architect, I thought that when he turned around in that chair, he should have been stroking a white cat. "I've been expecting you..." :D

I don't agree that the script is just filler... I think the Wachowski Brothers have a story they want to tell, just because they do it with style doesn't mean that there's no story. Although it is a confusing one.

The ending reminded me of The Two Towers... or The Empire Strikes Back, for that matter. ;) Yes, it makes the middle movie seem incomplete, but once you see the third part, it will all make sense and you'll forgive them. :D And hopefully not make you curse over the inclusion of random fuzzy creatures. :rolleyes: ;) But you know what I mean, it seems as though it's designed to be seen all as one big movie, and it's only split up for the sake of making it into an acceptable size for a movie. I heard beforehand that it was a cliffhanger ending though, so I was expecting it to end when Neo has to make the choice in the Architect's roon, or when Trinity dies, or something... so it didn't seem so bad.

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Postby Aegis » Sun May 18, 2003 7:33 am

@Ode: I would've preferred something more solid. Even the Two Towers and Empire didn't leave such an imcomplete ending.

To me, that ending wasn't a cliffhanger, it was a copout. As for the story, I had no trouble understanding it, and thats why I think of it as I do. I understand that other people may've/do like it, so I'm not gonna try to impress my dislike of the movie on, I just don't think it was done well, and to me, it doesn't bode well for Revoloutions.

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Postby Nightmare » Sun May 18, 2003 9:42 am

I'm gonna see it again sometime, cause I want to understand exactly what the architect said. His dialogue was a bi too hard to understand. ;)

The only other scenes I had a bit of a problem with was the long dialogue with the French guy, and the long.....uh........"dance" scene.

Read for more spoilers:

Did anyone completely understand what the Architect said? What I get from it is that the "Matrix" is really just a program inside another "Matrix". The 99% of the population accepts the Matrix, then the other 1% doesn't, so they retreat into Zion, which is still part of the Matrix (something like that). Neo is the glitch that could eventually destroy the Matrix, and he's the "One" because he doesn't accept either world, he'll only accept reality (maybe?).

Also, did the first 5 "Ones" go into the source and decide the few people to rebuild Zion? If so, then by saving Trinity, Neo took the path that the others didn't, and somehow this means the end of humanity? This is the part I want to understand when I watch it again.

All in all, I loved the fight scenes (obviously). After the big Smith fight, my friend and I looked at each other, and we had expressions of pure glee on our faces. :D

Being the geek I am, I loved the plot too (and I disagree that most of it was filler), and I can't wait for the next movie. I really liked the ending too....I was like "NOOOOOOOOO.....don't end it like that!". I was pretty surprised they went that far though, I thought they were going to end it when Neo's dream of Trinity dying was about to come true.

And the dude at the end, lying on the other bed, is Agent Smith. :cool:


Oh, and I knew about the Revolutions thing, and saw the trailer at the end. :cool:
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Postby Jaesha » Sun May 18, 2003 10:09 am

@Georgi; I wasn't that thrilled about Dark City either, the actors did a lousy job and the ending was bad.

Also, I don't think the matrix script is that bad. I think it's a great story, and I love the alice in wonderland comparisons.
The plot is also very inventive, I think.
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Postby fable » Sun May 18, 2003 11:08 am

Originally posted by Georgi
I don't agree that the script is just filler... I think the Wachowski Brothers have a story they want to tell, just because they do it with style doesn't mean that there's no story. Although it is a confusing one.


Each to their own, but I wouldn't call anything in the Matrix confusing. To me, it was just a blatantly obvious and bad script. For example, let's consider the guy who betrays the renegade group kills them one by one, as they're in the Matrix. Does he simply kill the hero and heroine after decimating their party in that fashion? No; and for no good reason, except that it would end the film prematurely. ;) Instead, he starts a long, annoying, psychopathic monologue that doesn't fit his character, but allows him to supposedly build up suspense before killing the hero and heroine. Then, he gets killed by a man he supposedly killed a few minutes ago, who miraculously "got better" very, very quickly. :rolleyes:

My wife and I burst out laughing at that point--and at many other unintentionally humorous points in the film. I'm not saying my opinion is better than anybody else's, but that's my take on the film. :)
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Postby Nippy » Sun May 18, 2003 11:22 am

@ Fable, I think I'd disagree with the way you portray the "pyschopathic monologue" aspect. Personally, I thought Cypher (I think that was his name) only went through that dialogue that he did was because he was jealous. Jealous of Neo and Trinity's relationship. Living in an existence like that, knowing that beforehand you were living in a "real" world, and knowing that you could return to it with a bit of help would give you a certain amount of insanity.

And when you mention the guy that gets better, well I'm sorry, but not everyone dies straight away - intenstinal wounds can take days before you die. ;)
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Postby Zelgadis » Sun May 18, 2003 11:23 am

Originally posted by Nightmare
Also, did the first 5 "Ones" go into the source and decide the few people to rebuild Zion? If so, then by saving Trinity, Neo took the path that the others didn't, and somehow this means the end of humanity? This is the part I want to understand when I watch it again.

This apparently means the end of humanity because the One is not accepting their control, so instead of the machines risking losing control of humanity and being destroyed, the machines will annhiliate them and survive without them.
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Postby Rob-hin » Sun May 18, 2003 12:23 pm

Damn...

Why can I never resist a "Highlight for spoliers"?
Now I know something I didn't wanna know.:rolleye"s:

I want to see the movie asap and it seems too be cool, but I don't like the whole hype around it.
The "too be continued" ending doesn't help eighter.
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Postby fable » Sun May 18, 2003 6:13 pm

Originally posted by Nippy
@ Fable, I think I'd disagree with the way you portray the "pyschopathic monologue" aspect. Personally, I thought Cypher (I think that was his name) only went through that dialogue that he did was because he was jealous. Jealous of Neo and Trinity's relationship. Living in an existence like that, knowing that beforehand you were living in a "real" world, and knowing that you could return to it with a bit of help would give you a certain amount of insanity.


But remember the sick laughter, the Peter Lorre-style horror remarks...? That's not jealousy, unless you consider it the jealousy of a lunatic. ;) I think they wanted to portray a psychopath, and of course, have him rant at length and drool over the heroine like a depraved Woody Allen wannabe for no other reason than to build tension...which they couldn't (IMO) resolve credibly.

And when you mention the guy that gets better, well I'm sorry, but not everyone dies straight away - intenstinal wounds can take days before you die. ;)

It's not the fact that he improves that matters to me. It's the fact that he was shown being decisively killed a short while before. In other words, they wanted the suspense of putting the heroine and hero in a deadend situation, but couldn't think of a reputable (plot-wise) way of getting 'em out of it. So they had a character look like they were killed, then had 'em getting a helluva lot (not just a leetle) better compared to what they seemed a short while ago, in order to save matters. When a character has to look like they've been killed, in order to create tremendous tension, then brought back to resolve it, we're dealing with one of the hokiest tricks in the book. Good writers create life-threatening situations, only to provide you with a reasonable save in the nick of time.

Each to their own, like I said, but my wife and I found the film pretentious and really badly written. The special effects were great, but that doesn't make a film work for me.
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Postby thantor3 » Mon May 19, 2003 9:48 am

Originally posted by fable
But remember the sick laughter, the Peter Lorre-style horror remarks...? That's not jealousy, unless you consider it the jealousy of a lunatic. ;) I think they wanted to portray a psychopath, and of course, have him rant at length and drool over the heroine like a depraved Woody Allen wannabe for no other reason than to build tension...which they couldn't (IMO) resolve credibly.


Technically, I think he was more sociopathic than psychopathic. :)

I found myself disappointed in Reloaded, with its interminable action scenes, lack of character development, and reliance on deux ex machina plot devices. However, I appreciated the metaphysical implications of the story and the way the story dealt with the issue of the One. Once again, I found myself wishing that the character (and actor who plays) Neo were as interesting as Morpheus… or the Oracle. The idea of the voice of intuition as an unflappable, middle-aged black woman… now that is intriguing. ;)
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Postby ThorinOakensfield » Mon May 19, 2003 4:30 pm

Reloaded was a good movie. Different from teh first, its hard to tell which one is better. The first one was great because it was something new, this one may be suffering from being in the middle. It has no plot resolutions.

Some parts were confusing but after discussing it with my friends after the movie we got some of it. Anyway its a great movie, alot of action and stunts and a decent but confusing storyline.
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Postby VonDondu » Thu May 22, 2003 1:36 am

Originally posted by Nightmare
Read for more spoilers:

Did anyone completely understand what the Architect said? What I get from it is that the "Matrix" is really just a program inside another "Matrix". The 99% of the population accepts the Matrix, then the other 1% doesn't, so they retreat into Zion, which is still part of the Matrix (something like that). Neo is the glitch that could eventually destroy the Matrix, and he's the "One" because he doesn't accept either world, he'll only accept reality (maybe)

Highlight for spoilers of my own:

When I saw the movie, it occurred to me that Zion is not the real world, it's another part of the Matrix. So when people get out of their tubs and unhook from the Matrix, they're really inside another part of virtual reality. This would explain why Neo, having been enlightened by the Architect, could stop machines in their tracks even in Zion, which is supposedly the "real world". All it takes is an enlightened consciousness, just like using fake kung fu inside the Matrix. :) If this is the case, it makes you wonder what the "real world" really looks like.

Keep in mind that Neo has supposedly come into existence six times and has followed "virtually" (ha-ha) the same path in each incarnation, up to and including his meeting with the Architect. That sounds like a closed-system program to me. Also, even though different "spaces" inside the Matrix are really just different bits of code which Neo can recognize for what they are, for him to get from one "space" to another, he still has to "travel". I presume it's "really" just metaphorical travel. But the point is, travel through the Matrix involves physical illusions. That would explain why the machines have to "dig through the earth" to reach Zion. They're really just moving from one bit of code to another, but it requires a physical metaphor because the illusions created by the programming logic are so pervasive.

It's just a theory that I made up, of course. I could be wrong. But it would be cool if it were true.

One more thing. If I had been in Neo's shoes, I would not have believed everything I was told. Neo is a strange kind of hero because he never does anything unless other people tell him what to do. "I'm here to destroy the Matrix, and you probably want to stop me, but I'll believe whatever you say." Isn't it possible that the Architect lied to Neo? He certainly had good reason to. And Neo is obviously easy to manipulate. :) If Zion isn't real, then if Neo listens to the Architect and only makes one of the choices the Architect offers, he won't destroy the "uber-Matrix", no matter what happens to Zion. So I figure the Architect wasn't telling him everything. :)


Now back to your originally scheduled program. :)

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Postby Mister Popo » Thu May 22, 2003 3:41 am

Highlight for possible Spoiler
@VonDondu It was after the Architect and the stopping of the Squids that I finaly understood the Agent Smith download. When you first see Smith being downloaded I didn't think anything would happen as it would be very strange for a program to download itself in a real being (or wouldn't it) but as Bane was just moving from one Matrix to Another (or a different space within the Matrix) Smith just did some "remote copying" as we know agents can "jump" into people within the matrix.

Also I really wondered what the world, our world, the real not Zion world, looks like, the Architect said that the whole cycle has been going on for ages.

Last point, the Oracle, Seraph and others are suposed to be programs within the Matrix that are no longer needed, have fullfilled their purpose and don't want to "die" why would the Oracle (and Seraph to lesser extend) want to help bring down the Matrix and with it their lives?


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Postby frogus » Fri May 23, 2003 3:08 am

I thought the movie was pretty bad...the fights were long and incredible (all good), and the special effects were stunning in places, but very much too manga in others.

Agent Smith was absolutely fantastic again, but the architect and the Frenchman were bad jokes....'Link' was dreadful, surprisingly, as he was great in Romeo & Juliet. Morpheus was alright, Trinity was alright, and the rest were so two dimensional that they either became comic book characters or comedy characters.

The dialogue was so bad it was horrid to listen to.

There were a lot of bits of useless deadend plot, or filler, as Aegis said, but the story was pretty good, with not too many holes, but the over-long, pseudish, longword Architect monologue at the end was largely nonsense. Read William Gibson's Count Zero to see how that kind of thing can be done really well.

Some of the cinematography was very cool, though I would have liked to see more cyber-gothy stuff like the Agent Smith shot with the ravens, and the keymaker's cell, and less of the Japanese-style superhero posing, like when Neo is above the clouds, or when Trinity is falling out of the window...

More black theory: I foresee another matrix too...The signs are Neo's real-world powers and Agent Smith downloading himself.
I suspect that The Oracle is an ambassador from a Third Force (she almost explained herself to Neo, but the "all I'm interested in is the future" was very vague) who control the new Matrix, or what Morpheus thought was the real world.
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Postby Maharlika » Sat May 24, 2003 4:56 am

This one came from a friend.

MATRIX RELOADED:

The Zion Loop Explained
F.E.T.F.


After having watched the much-awaited sequel to the Matrix, everyone who has seen it should have by now realized that the most important scene in the movie is the encounter between Neo and the Architect of the Matrix. Everything that happens before this encounteris merely instrumental and leads to this most
significant event. The superb CGI fight scenes, the introduction of rogue sentient programs like the Key Maker, the Merovingian and the Twins, Neo’s new superpowers, the replicating virus Agent Smith, as well as the new cast of characters from Zion are all
interesting but are purely tangential to the new revelation that is made apparent to Neo by the Architect. After all, the Wachowskis made the Matrix sell not solely due to the unique fight scenes but
also, and perhaps more so, due to the revelation concerning reality within the Matrix movie.

The Architect – a sentient program, explains to Neo that he created the Matrix – a program designed specifically to enslave the sleeping minds of humans comprising the “power plant”, which provides energy for the sentient machines. The first version of the Matrix was a failure because it was designed to be a perfect world. People’s minds rebelled against this perfect Matrix.

The phenomenon of a prefect world inhabited by imperfect human minds eventually led to unnecessary deaths and ultimately deprived the machines of their energy source. This, we already know from Agent Smith when he held Morpheus captive and was
attempting to obtain from him access to the Zion main frame during the first Matrix movie. The Architect in the sequel gives a similar explanation.

The Architect further explains that in order to produce a better Matrix, he had to base it upon the imperfections of human history. To better serve the needs of the machines, this Matrix had to cater to flawed human thought. Human thinking then had to be examined and investigated and this required another
sentient program to fulfill the role.

Thus, the Oracle came into being. However, as the Architect implies,“Oracle” was a name given to her by humans. At this
point, it can be noted that the due to its specific role of understanding the human mind, the Oracle was the only sentient program with the greatest capability of understanding humans.

Thus, the ability of the Oracle to “predict” what human beings would do within the Matrix became manifest, similar perhaps to how well the best psychologist could predict what a person
would do, if that psychologist had the best understanding of said individual.

As a best solution, the Oracle came up with improvements to the Matrix to accommodate the human mind. Yet despite being the best solution, the new Matrix could only be accepted by 99% of human minds hooked to it. 1% would always rebel or would
inevitably “free” themselves of the Matrix. Those who did free themselves would form the human “rebellion” and constitute themselves as the last human city, Zion.

Faced with this, the machines came up with a mathematically precise prediction: that 1% of those hooked to the Matrix would always rebel, these rebels would grow in number, would eventually wage war and would always threaten the existence of the machines.

Thus, another solution was introduced with the help of the Oracle. An outlet had to be developed; like an automatic drainage system for floods that got out of hand. Human beings needed an outlet to enable the machines to stay in control of them.

Thus the “Prophecy of the One” was conceived, and the Oracle would become part of the Matrix in order for humans to come into contact with her. They would not, however, be allowed to learn that she was a program and not human herself.

With her prophetic ability to predict human behavior within the Matrix, it was easy for her to create an oracle-like reputation. She would then spread this new gospel: that there would come a freed human being capable of wondrous feats within the Matrix, who would lead the human rebellion to victory over the machines.

A human mind, on occasion, would be endowed with the capacity to surpass the programming rules of the Matrix – an inherent flaw or “anomaly” as the Architect calls it, within the present Matrix program.

Yet even the inevitability of the anomaly or the “one”, would be used by the machines in their grand “prophecy” plan.

Once the “one” is found, the machines would begin their assault against the human rebellion. The ultimate conclusion of this so-called “prophecy”, as the Architect explains, would come when the “one” enters the room with the door made of light, in which
the Architect resides. At this point, the machines would be at the brink of destroying Zion. The one would then be faced with a stark choice. The first option is for the one to go back to the “source” and allow Zion to be destroyed but, in return, he would be allowed by the machines to choose 16 women and 7 men to be freed from the Matrix to rebuild Zion. The other
option is to save loved ones from imminent death but this would result in the destruction of the Matrix and the death of all human beings.

The Architect reveals to Neo that this “prophecy” has so far worked in favor of the machines, as Neo discovers that he is in fact the 6th “one” to face the Architect.

All of Neo’s predecessors apparently have chosen to go back to the source and save human beings from extinction. The past existence of five other “ones” are confirmed in the movie when Agent Smith says to his copy that “it is happening all over again as before”. This is further reinforced by the Merovingian when he admonishes Neo that his “predecessors had more respect”.

In the first movie, after being freed from the Matrix, Neo asks Morpheus where they are. To this, Morpheus replies that “more important than where, is when”. He goes on to say, “you believe we are in 1999 when we are in fact closer to the year 2199.” But as the Architect elaborates to Neo, “the Matrix has been around far longer than you imagine”.

In Matrix Reloaded, Morpheus claims, in his speech to the people of Zion, that the war with the machines has been going on for the past one hundred years. But with the Architect’s revelation, apparently, every hundred or so years Zion has been rebuilding itself since the first “one” appeared. To accomplish the illusion that each Zion is the only one that existed, no human rebel should, theoretically, be left alive with the memory of a former Zion. Thus, each Zion built has the appearance of being the original, with none having come before it.

After his encounter with the Architect, Neo tells Morpheus that the prophecy is a lie. It is designed merely as another means of control over humans. (We recall that the reason for this “Zion Loop”, as I call it, is the containment of the 1% of human minds, over which the Matrix eventually will have little or no control).

The mechanism of the “prophecy” allows the growing population of rebels from that 1% to destroy itself when a critical number is reached. In this case, it appears to be 250,000 human rebels, the same number of sentinels comprising the army drilling its way to
Zion. This critical number is deemed by the machines as a point at which they are in the greatest danger of being overcome by humans. Therefore, whenever the rebel population is about to reach this critical mass, a number of things begin to happen. First, the “one” is found through the machinations of the Oracle, using
someone like a “Morpheus” as an instrument. Second, an army of machines begins their assault upon Zion.

Third, the way is paved such that the “one” reaches the Architect – also through the instructions of the Oracle. And finally, the “one” inevitably chooses to save humanity as predicted by the machines. Thus, the cycle begins all over again.

However, in the sequel, the Architect himself is quite impressed with Neo compared to his five predecessors. Furthermore, Neo does not make the choice his predecessors made.

Is humanity doomed? What new revelation do the Wachowskis have for us in the upcoming concluding episode of the Matrix?
[color="DarkRed"]"There is no weakness in honest sorrow... only in succumbing to depression over what cannot be changed."[/color] --- Alaundo, BG2


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Recoba
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Nottingham,UK
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Postby Recoba » Sun May 25, 2003 2:37 am

unsure

My 2 cents for what its worth :)

Though I enjoyed the movie, I think that some bit could have been better.

On the good side - the fight scenes were amazing (at least 3 extended sequences) which were good and the run up to the end with the car chase was amazing. Also some of the bits around zion were interesting.

However, whereas in the first one the philosophy was interesting and comprehendable (some of the lines like "there is a difference between choosing the path and walking the path" and "ever wondered how deep the rabbit hole goes" worked really well and helped the plot) where as in this one i was left saying "huh" quite alot and whilst maybe i did not get it it was a little inpenetrable in places. Especially that french dude. Some of the stuff about choice was interesting (though it got a bit annoying in the pub afterwards when i asked "what do you want to drink" and I got the reply "you already know, the choice has been made")

Anyway, I am watching it again today - maybe it will make more sense so I will post back any changes.

Laters

Recoba

PS anyone who has not seen it in uk yet stay afterwards at the end of the credits for a revolutions preview.
Chewbacca - "Rwaaarn!"
Han Solo - "You said it Chewie!"

Azim - "No one controls my destiny, at least not one who attacks downwind and smelling of garlic"