Anti-War Demonstration in NYC & around the world - 2/15/03

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Anti-War Demonstration in NYC & around the world - 2/15/03

Postby VoodooDali » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:19 pm

I'm gonna be there, are you?

TIME: 12 Noon
DATE: February 15th (THIS Saturday)
WHERE: First Avenue, stretching north from 49th St.

The New York Police Department is still refusing to issue a permit for a march, citing "security concerns."

Speakers and performers will include:
Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate
Harry Belafonte
Danny Glover
Susan Sarandon
Pete Seeger
Rosie Perez
Tony Kushner
Julian Bond
Martin Luther King, III
Betty
poets from Def Poetry Jam
Angela Y. Davis
Dennis Rivera, SEIU 1199
Kim Gandy, National Organization for Women
Ruth Messinger, American Jewish World Service

This rally will happen in conjunction with events in over 300 other cities around the world. From London to Seoul, people are raising their voices against a war with Iraq. You can join the call by coming to New York City this Saturday.

To find out where the rally is happening in your neck of the woods, see:

United for Peace
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Postby C Elegans » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:32 pm

Just discussed this with my hubby and some friends earlier tonight...we will be there.

The opposition against a war is increasing among the Europen population as you can see on the chart below. In Sweden, the number of participants in the demonstrations on Saturday are expected to be level with the Vietnam war protests.

Image

Go Germany, France and Belgium :)

A majority of Swedes, me included, holds the opinion that Sweden too should take official stance against the use of war as a means to solve conflicts.
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Postby dragon wench » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:48 pm

The New York Police Department is still refusing to issue a permit for a march, citing "security concerns."


So much for Freedom and Democracy....... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


On topic... there will be a rally held in Vancouver and we plan to attend with our son...
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Postby James Mason » Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:00 pm

Originially posted by DW
On topic... there will be a rally held in Vancouver and we plan to attend with our son...

Teaching them early I see...
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Postby dragon wench » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:12 am

Originally posted by James Mason
Teaching them early I see...

*French shrug*
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Postby Kayless » Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:18 am

Unfortunately I will not be attending, since I'm organizing a pro-war/anti-hippy demonstration the same day. J/K folks. ;)
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Postby at99 » Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:21 am

I have no idea what the peace marches are supposed to achieve. Whether you are against a war or for it, a gathering of people seems (a waste of time).

Even a rally for war is silly.


Maybe if the peace rally would put its energy into a better Solution other than war and hold rallies in protest when Sadam commits more crimes then we will all be better off.
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Postby Gruntboy » Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:58 am

I'm sorry, I must respectfully decline and disagree with you. I hope you are safe during the rally and that you feel you are doing some good.

I sincerely hope that anybody who bravely fights in this war will not be subjected to the same misguided hatred that condemned those that followed orders and did what they thought was right in Vietnam (without wishing to draw parallels with that war).

How I hope you are right. Unfortunately I take a dim view of humankind and believe further terrorist attrocities can only be limited by pursuing this inevitable next step.
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Postby Der-draigen » Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:52 am

Thanks for that info Voo :)


Originally posted by VoodooDali

The New York Police Department is still refusing to issue a permit for a march, citing "security concerns."


Security concerns! ROFL!!! The whole dang planet has enough to be worried about security concerns, like a march is going to hurt anything :rolleyes: What the gov't won't do for propaganda...
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Postby Der-draigen » Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:54 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy
Unfortunately I take a dim view of humankind and believe further terrorist attrocities can only be limited by pursuing this inevitable next step.


I strongly and respectfully disagree...Pursuing a war against Iraq will only increase terrorist activity, as they will feel the need to retaliate.
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Postby Beldin » Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:03 am

I will for once disregard my own guidelines and make a political statement, but after CM started into hugging I don't think that anybody cares 'bout that ... ;) :D


Originally posted by Gruntboy
Unfortunately I take a dim view of humankind and believe further terrorist attrocities can only be limited by pursuing this inevitable next step.


I agree that some people - or even countries have to be watched. But WHO watches the watchers ?

That's why the UNO was established. Therefore any war without the acceptance of the UN is a terroristic act in itself.

Just my 2 c.

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Postby Mr Sleep » Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:20 am

Beldin, clean out your PM box, it's full to the brim!
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Postby Littiz » Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:58 am

Frankly, declarations of all the parts involved are starting to sound ridicule.
This "war" seems extremely pretestuous, here I agree with the "pacifists".
But they too often seem ready to deny the evidence of problems.
I heard that Iraq does "state donations" to kamikazes' families.
Don't know if it's true, but if it is so, a nation who suffered from such attacks
has already enough reasons to start.

I hope that someone will stop Bush one way or another....
But this kamikaze thing also can no more be tolerated!
Why pacifists don't march against the kamikaze ideology????
Why pacifists march against war ONLY when America's involved?
I never heard about marches for Chechenia... and for Croatia, marches started only after years,
when ONU and America finally entered the conflict...
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Postby VoodooDali » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:02 am

Hey Der-draigen, Dragon Wench and CE - glad to hear you will be protesting, too! (Speaking of that - how come all the SYMers participating are women?)

Beldin, thanx for the moral support.

I grew up in the Vietnam era - I still have my POW/MIA bracelet, if anyone remembers those - and my brother was drafted through the lottery to go over there. I don't think protest is a waste of time - if there had been no protests here, the Vietnam war would have cost many more lives. Also, this is the first war where there is an anti-war movement before the war even starts. An anti-war movement for Vietnam didn't exist until about 5 years into it.

My general feeling about going to war with Iraq is that it is naive to believe you can go in and just change a political system if there isn't already massive support for that change in the country itself. (And if there were - why would we need to change it? They could.) We went to war with Korea to change things, and didn't. We went to Vietnam to change things, and didn't. I don't think Iraq would be any different. When I took Islamic history, I learned one thing - every single entity that invaded the Middle East was either destroyed or assimilated.

Here's the latest interesting article about the impending war.
Ten Reasons Why Many Gulf War Veterans Oppose Re-Invading Iraq
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Postby dragon wench » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:12 am

@Littiz,
I just want to point out that many people who are opposed to this war are not necessarily across the board pacifists :) (for example..I actually grudgingly supported the first Gulf War), it's just that they see this particular conflict as morally wrong and entirely unjustified....

As has been dicusssed elsewhere on this board, I feel that with North Korea becomingly increasingly belligerent... the US has some very misplaced priorities...

As far as protests against just the US go.. I don't know... Maybe the history of Vietnam has done a lot to colour people's opinions... Personally, I have also taken part in protests against the Chinese occupation of Tibet (funny how silent most 'western' nations are on the atrocities that occur there...)... I don't see the world in clearcut, black and white terms, and I'm sure many other people don't either.
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Postby C Elegans » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:27 am

@Der-Dragen: Like you, I believe a war against Iraq now will increase terrorism targeted against the US/UK. I also believe it will increase the split between the Arab world and the US, as well as increase the tension in the Middle east. Everybody wants to get rid of Saddam, but a war is not the only, nor the best, solution.

Originally posted by Littiz

Why pacifists march against war ONLY when America's involved?
I never heard about marches for Chechenia... and for Croatia, marches started only after years,
when ONU and America finally entered the conflict...


Now I feel strange again agreeing with you :D
There are many unjust conflicts and wars going on in the world. Unfortunately, few of those are covered in media, and how much people protest is connected a lot to media coverage as well as how much power the involved partys have. Few people cared about the Taliban's repeated violations of Humans rights before the WTC attack. And few people have bothered about Chechnya during all the years between the last media coverage and the Moscow theatre hostage situation - although their situations hasn't changed at all.

The US is the world's only remaining superpower. I think that makes people more prone to protest since many are worried for the consequences of the US acting.

@Voodoo: Glad to hear you are joining too :) Btw it is not only female SYMers participating, my hubby Silur is also a SYMer (although a very infrequent poster) and he will be going too...as well as Dottie I would guess.

Good article, btw. :)
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Postby Chanak » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:32 am

Protests have served causes well in the past. It was an important part of the American Civil Rights movement in the late 50's and 60's...and they did achieve something indeed. I have a tremendous amount of respect for those who are willing to work hard to support something that they believe in. I hope the rallies go without incident as well, and that you all return to your homes and families safely.

Re: security concerns....this is where I begin to feel uncomfortable. Personally, I am against limitations of personal freedom, regardless of the cause it is for. I can see why they might cite this as a reason for concern, as terrorists might possibly use it as a window of opportunity...still, IMO they are playing right into the hands of those who wish ill will by allowing fear to rule the day. It has an onimous feel to it, one which I don't like at all.
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Postby dragon wench » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:33 am

@VoodooDali,
interesting link....

In some ways it calls to mind other stuff I have read... Apparently at one point Henry Kissenger, of all people, was advising against a war... And the CIA has on several occasions expressed its discomfort at the so-called links between Iraq and Al Quaeda... It becomes very disturbing when Kissenger and the CIA, in contrast to the Bush adminstration, appear as 'voices of reason'.... :rolleyes:
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Postby Littiz » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:36 am

That's true, @DW. I'm also against this war, for that matter.
But for my little experience, I can say how things go in this fraction of Europe.
Anti-americanism is a fashion - no more, no less.
And such manifestations are always a great success because of that.

Of course, the larger they are, the more they need an organization.
And while people who join them may be pushed by pure intentions, the ones
who organize them are often (always?) politicians (or the like of them)
who use anti-americanism as a tool for self-promotion.
The US is the world's only remaining superpower. I think that makes people more prone to protest since many are worried for the consequences of the US acting.

You have a point, @CE, here.
Hey, somehow we're saying the same thing, I'm just more cinic :rolleyes: :p
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Postby Kameleon » Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:03 am

:(

I was planning on going into London tomorrow to demonstrate, but the flu has me well and truly in its grasp and I doubt anyone feels like carrying me in...good luck to everyone going and be careful not to get caught up in anything you might regret later :)
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