Whats in The Box!!! (possible spoiler)

[Outcast]

Okies I am certain this question has probably been asked before. I am new to this forum and im not to good at navigating these things. Plus I know it will probably add some interesting conversation considering all the differing perspectives on the world of VTM. That is unless there is truly a definitive answer. Of course it doesent matter since some of you might also have different opinions and interpretations.

Maybe I missed something playing the game. But id really like to know which Antediluvian you think was inside the Ankaran sarcophagus.

Anyone who follows the story's knows it couldn't have been Ravnos for example since he was in india during the week of nightmares. We also know that Tzimisce is underneath new york. I have heard players from the days of live action and table top argue over whether lasombra or tremere are even in fact still alive in the modern nights and whether there own clans hide the fact so they don't lose there standing.

There are many different theories and philosphies. I have heard one person claim that he believed Saulot was inside the Sarcophagus. (For those who dont know Saulot was the salubri Antediluvian who got devoured by tremere thereby making tremere a clan.) However there is storyline that suggests Saulot might somehow still exist somewhere.

Every famous vampire has an alias. So who is supposed to be in the box?=P

[mr_sir]

Its possible that there wasn't even an antidiluvian in the sarcophagos at all - it could have been a hoax right from the start, designed to cause chaos, or bring down the Camarilla, or any number of reasons. In my opinion this is the case with many things in the game such as the actual contents of the box before the bomb was planted, who planted the bomb, who was the real influence behind the events that took place... and so on. Of course there are plenty of theories about all of this, but the game never answers these questions in a way that one of these theories can be proven 100% and beyond all doubt - one of the things I love about the game

[Celacena]

we have discussed the back-story and interpreted the game in a number of threads - there are certain hard facts, but even though a number of us share our interpretation of those facts, we do not agree.

I would suggest that the majority of those who expressed an opinion thought that the box did NOT contain an antediluvian and was a set-up.
the exact mechanics of the set-up and who was involved is the subject of debate.
the leading contenders are Jack, Gary and Caine.

Jack appears to have been involved in the bomb-plot, Gary always knows more than he lets on and Caine...well, what is THAT all about?

the plot is involved and corners were cut to get it released - perhaps the developers hadn't even decided - it IS just a story.

most people see the game as independent of the PnP game and don't import 'evidence' from the PnP game/books. as with films, game developers don't always stick with the milieu.

[Lukeatus]

This post talks about the ENDGAME, so if you haven't finished the game yet, either being a loner or aligning with the Anarchs, DO NOT read this.



Didn't we all see Jack sitting with Messerah or however you spell his name? An Acient Assyrian? Of course he's a Vampire, maybe Assamite? Or even Setitte? From that Region, I'm really not sure. or maybe he's not an anti but a 4th or 5th acient vamp of some kind?
I kind of wonder about the ending... Who do you guys think the cabbie is? It looks as if he's after diablerizing Messerah or whatever, it's a scary ending, or maybe he's just out there to chill with Jack? But it sure doesn't look that way. What are you guys' opinions on this and what clan do you guys think Messerah is?

[Outcast]

Well I opened this thread because I know that there didn't seem to be a definitive answer regarding who or what was in the Ankaran sarcophagus. I wanted to hear opinions and theories behind who was behind it and perhaps through the theories and through peoples knowledge behind what's speculation and whats fact in VTM we might figure out at the very least a good guess.

Besides it is always fun to try even if we come up empty handed. Sometimes the answer can also stare you in the face in white wolf lore whether by accident or purposely. In one of the stories I read for VTM there was a twist at the end some people didn't get. One of the characters who for all intensive purposes appeared not so old turned out at the end to be either an awakened Antediluvian checking on his clan or at the very least a methusulah. Remember what I said in the opening of this thread about vampires having aliases.

How many names did Ravnos have. I heard about five or six. It seems that some antediluvians have woken up at different times throughout history and have gotten back into vampire politics. One of them could have very well been a king at one point. The story does indicate the king that they think lives in the box was mortal and yet he lived a life longer then any mortal could. He might very well have been older then that. Just because they knew him by one name doesent mean he couldn't have been an ante or meth. May seem like a stretch but there seem to be facts that support this idea.

[Wesp5]

Originally Posted by Outcast

Well I opened this thread because I know that there didn't seem to be a definitive answer regarding who or what was in the Ankaran sarcophagus. I wanted to hear opinions and theories behind who was behind it and perhaps through the theories and through peoples knowledge behind what's speculation and whats fact in VTM we might figure out at the very least a good guess.

I think looking at the Solo or Anarch ending cutscenes and remembering the infos from Beckett and Johansen makes it clear that Tesserach was in the box and that he was just a normal human. More details of the plan will be audible in the next unofficial patch 3.6 where I restored an unused line of Jack after his usual "Hey, it happened just like you said. They never even knew what hit 'em." namely "Threw that sarcophagus out there and they just tore each other up tryin' to get to it." I think that was the plan by him and Cabbie.

[Lukeatus]

Spoilers-

Messerah can't be just a normal human. Johansen says that he would have to be 250 years old during his rule. And the Lamasu thing, and the drinking blood thing, he's definately a vampire. Of what sort we don't know. And we also don't know who the cabbie is.... Do you guys think that the CABBIE is the antideluvian? I mean, Beckett and Strauss do sense something powerful in the air.... So either one is very powerful. No word if they're one of the antis though .....

[mr_sir]

Originally Posted by Lukeatus

Spoilers-

Messerah can't be just a normal human. Johansen says that he would have to be 250 years old during his rule. And the Lamasu thing, and the drinking blood thing, he's definately a vampire. Of what sort we don't know. And we also don't know who the cabbie is.... Do you guys think that the CABBIE is the antideluvian? I mean, Beckett and Strauss do sense something powerful in the air.... So either one is very powerful. No word if they're one of the antis though .....

That was my view on the ending - the guy in the box was a vampire but not a antideluvian, that was something that was just rumoured in order to trick LaCroix into opening the box. Or possibly that the guy in the box was a ghoul (who is now long dead and mummified) and the blood he was drinking was in fact vampire blood. I also feel that the cabbie is a powerful vampire, possibly the one behind the whole thing and working with Jack and possibly Gary to cause chaos in LA and bring down LaCroix.

[Celacena]

if you watch the ending - you see Jack sitting there with a mummy. he makes the remark 'you don't talk much do you?' in the way that people joke about the dead. IMO he has taken the mummy from the sarcophagus and thinks it a laugh to have it sitting there 'watching' the destruction of the tower.

notice that the tower is still in the process of construction - remember the Biblical Tower of Babel ? LaX's tower is symbolic of his rule/ambition - it is not yet complete, so now is the time to destroy it.

I have watched the ending a few times and there is no suggestion that the mummy is animated. from what is said, the mummy King may well have been a ghoul - long life but not unending. it shows that the sarcophagus was not empty when it was discovered, but as you only see jack, the PC and the cabbie at the end - there is no confirmation that Gary is fully involved. Beckett is an enigma - he appears to know about the bomb and warns the PC not to open the box. the PC feels that Beckett is 'not quite himself' at the meeting in the street and that made me wonder if it was Ming playing games again.
Pisha also senses a massacre due to take place - what does she know?

there IS no antediluvian in the box - but who knows about the cabbie ? - there are suggestions that he is Caine and I do not know the background mythology well enough to speculate. the dialogue in the cab and his association with Jack make him crucial.

[Outcast]

If any of the ancients could hold it together and act with a reasonable mind when they awaken it would probably be caine. His aura if you ever look at it and his guidance toward the endings seem to indicate a vamp pulling the strings. What was sensed could have been him. Elder vampires were also known for being able to hide there power from the eyes of others. A person who could read auras might see what an elder wants them to so he could indeed remain hidden and enigmatic.

I do find it somewhat hard to believe that it was just a simple bomb in the box. Its elaborate story is leading up to the final nights where the antedeluvians awaken. I know its a game but with the way VTM stories go it seems odd if not improbable that theres not more behind the scenes at the end. Yes the Anarchs wanted there terf back. Yes that might be a way to get it by offing the prince knowing full well that while normally he would never dirty his own hands in a possible confrontation that he would choose to open the box himself to greet the ante in the hopes it would take his side in gratitude for waking it up.

But there was something sensed in the city a power that the elders noticed. It also seemed that the character you play as seemed to have the chosen one sydrome where he was destined for something.

I suppose the last point of reason. Your a vampire. If your one with auspex and could forsee danger. If the box did not contain a supernatural being that sent an explosive rage of flames at you. Why didn't you know? If it was a mere trap, a bomb surely you could have seen it coming. Jack wouldnt have made an assasination attempt at the prince that could be so easily foiled. Unless it was somehow supernatural in nature. At least thats my opinion.

So far I see a lot of valid points on both sides of this.

[Lukeatus]

Huge Spoiler ......

Guys, if you look at the directories of the game, and look for the conversation files.....

There's a directory named "Caine" .... Guess what? The speech of the Cabbie during the game is found... Hmmm... Hint?

[Outcast]

Yes it is possible that the cabbie could be caine himself but if that is truly the case then the idea is even more in question.

The father of all vampires awakens. Goes to L.A an poses as a benign cab driver that gets you around the city when your job in the general area is done. He seems to decide when you've fullfilled whatever task was in mind for you and then wait for you to leave the area and move on elsewhere.

At the end he really seems to be the only one on your side laying out your options. Asking you where you want to go. If it was something as simple as blowing up lacroix with a bomb and was not pivitol to the final nights why would he bother. He's caine not a malkavian with a sock puppet. (yes my malky loved his sock puppets. They were his friends)

Lacroix would have to somehow be directly foiling his plans for caine to care about him. So if it was Caine as the cabbie and he was guiding you along. What was his real point and purpose?

[Paperbag Boy]

Okay, I just made this account just to remind you all of something important in wether or not the cabbie is Caine himself.

The Prophet-lady, who speaks truely on everything she says, on Santa Monica Beach says:
Why is he smiling? The father? Is it the father behind him?

Think about it. Jack's laughing when LaCroix blows up. Hence the first sentence. Then the cabbie comes walking up behind him. The father. Caine, father of all vampires. Thats just my point of view.

Why Caine is involved in this? Who knows? Thats a part we dont get told, and in a way, I'm glad we dont. In the World of Darkness, not everything has to make complete sense.

[Lucita]

Well....even though the game isn't considered canon to the PnP Vampire, Caine was in LA for a time shortly before Gehenna ( see the last Vampire novel ).
The sarcophagus on the other hand is a "McGuffin" as Alfred Hitchcock called a powerful or useful item around which the plot of a story evolves. The McGuffin doesn't have to be important but everyone in the story thinks it is, and so reacts accordingly ( a few classic examples: The One Ring in Lord of the Rings, the Ark of the Covenant in the Raiders of the lost Ark ).


MacGuffin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jack did a classic Con on everybody!

[Jhereg]

Originally Posted by Lukeatus

Spoilers-

Messerah can't be just a normal human. Johansen says that he would have to be 250 years old during his rule. And the Lamasu thing, and the drinking blood thing, he's definately a vampire. Of what sort we don't know. And we also don't know who the cabbie is.... Do you guys think that the CABBIE is the antideluvian? I mean, Beckett and Strauss do sense something powerful in the air.... So either one is very powerful. No word if they're one of the antis though .....

Not necessarily a vampire. Check Mercurio. If there's anybody lost in the seventies, it's him, but he sure doesn't look 60. He looks 30. So maybe ghouls lives are extended as well. That would explain the drinking blood, the prolonged life, and his death. He does have a corpse, after all. If he was a vampire who had been killed, he would have been ashes. So, if anything, I'd think he was some vampire's ghoul.

I also know what that something powerful that Beckett and Strauss sense is. It's you. Andrei says it himself - first that you're powerful, and when you finally kill him, he says you are much more powerful than at your last meeting.

Consider. You're embraced, and in a short time, you slaughter the Giovanni, the Society of Leopold, The Kuei-Jin, Andrei and all his creatures, the Sabbat, the Sherriff, a whole whack of Ventrue, and Lacriox himself.

At the end of the day, you leave only two groups in place. A leaderless Camarilla, and the Anarchs. Everybody else is done. Don't tell me that's the work of a newly embraced fledgling, unless that fledgling was truly powerful.

The reason why most people don't notice it's you is simply because you are a fledgling. By the time they would notice that what you were doing was far and away above what one would reasonably expect from a fledgling, it's too late. Lacriox is just thrilled with your success and is too preoccupied with his coffin to notice. By the time Beckett would notice that it's you, he's left. By the time Ming might have noticed it, you kill her. Nines is too young. Jack might know, but he's not talking. The cabbie certainly knows, but he, too, is not talking.

Again, the air is rife with 'why's and 'wherefore's, but at the sticking-point, that impending disaster in the air? It's you.