Favoite Clan?

[fable]

Celacena, Docking isn't referring to your message, but to a paragraph by Pennypincher:

1) Location Location Location. They made the Tzimisce to be the heartless rulers of the viovods (sp?) of the "darker lands" like Russia and Transilvania, Romania and what not in times when they were ruled by local lords who, as you pointed out, usualy ruled through terror and fear of "justice".. Which could come at any time for no reason at all.

For what little I've read of it over the years, Vlad certainly didn't rule by terror. He was one of a number of regional lords, a voivode, and spent much of his life in Wallachia repelling invasions by the Turks and Magyars. He did the former under the banner of the Holy Roman Empire, which helped secure him additional advantages he could play against other, nearby rulers who were his rivals. His methods were typical for his period, but no worse than many of the horrific things done in the Italian states, in France, the German states, etc, by their rulers. There's no record that he used impalement on locals. It was a deliberate message to those he deemed invaders. And when Bram Stoker decided he needed a semi-historical character for his Victorian vampire novel, Vlad with his reputation (through German stories) was ready made.

I suspect Stoker chose Romania as his setting for the eminently Victorian reason that it played into contemporary British bigotry and particular foreign stereotypes, but just because it did doesn't mean we have to believe them, ourselves.

[docking]

I think this is the first time i've heard someone foreigner(not romanian), that knows true facts about Vlad Tepes. good 4 u Fable. Good moderator too.
p.s. for pennypincher (i forgat to write this in my last post) : Transilvania is a region in Romania. is not a different country. is part of Romania. thank u. the offer remains : if u want i can send u over email more

[Faust]

Originally Posted by docking

Romania=latin country , Russia=slav country. Just because they are near oneonother doesnt mean they r alyke.
Oh and to set everything clear the most things u read about vlad is from some books writen by some englys and french hystotians wich are based of some letters send by local barons to the hungarian and turckysh courts to discredit vlad and to take the throne from him( lies lies lies).

I've stayed out of the historical discussion largely because my knowledge of Romanian history or Vlad Dracula, in general, are fairly limited. I did have a couple questions, though. First off, I'd say the tendency to place Romania in with the Slavic countries by Western historians is fairly common. So, you'll have to forgive us on making that assumption. It's a byproduct of the Cold War mentality, when we established virtual boundaries between west and eastern Europe. Obviously, many of those are mischaracterizations, on our part. Still, I'm not crazy about the assumption that only Romanian historians are interested in solid historical research. As a historian myself (though several centuries removed from Dracula and several countries removed from Romania), I have found well meaning scholars throughout the world and most of the books they sell don't produce royalties enough to sell their reputations. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, though. I think you were just referring to the sensationalism around Dracula.

I was curious, however, about a couple things. It does seem fairly clear that Vlad used a variety of heinous measures over against his enemies in order to strike fear into them. It's also clear that these measures were often very effective, and they helped transform him into a legendary figure. He struck a terrifying presence and was able to defeat the Turks on numerous occasion. Moreover, even among his own people, he created a society that was relatively free of crime. However, I'm curious as to whether Vlad is lionized in modern Romanian society? Is he a sort of medieval hero?

The other point is that, from what I can gather, there are three key pieces of historical evidence used to tell the tales of Vlad Dracula: German and Russian Pamphlets published after Vlad's death and the Romanian Oral Tradition. Now, we know that both pamphlets (which were largely for entertainment purposes, and were obviously propaganda in many places) and the oral tradition are flawed means of uncovering the "truth" about any historical figure.

From what I gather, the reason that many historians give credibility to some of the pamphlets that were disseminated is because there's a remarkable amount of agreement between the Russian and German sources (again, these were not exactly cultures on friendly terms, so there would have been no collaboration or borrowing; or at least that's something to consider). It's in these sources that instances of his evil acts against his own people are recounted, I believe (such as the mass slaughtering of Wallachia's poor at a dinner held in their honor, etc.). So, my question is, how do you weight the evidence?

Again, I'm really curious. I don't have a lot invested in the subject, but am merely trying to figure out how you think we should sift through the evidence laid out. Thanks so much.

[Talley_theHound]

I have been following theses post on Vlad/Dracula and have been enlightened by them. Now my two cents, Vampire:The Masquerade is a game. The world in which it takes place is not ours but a construct of fiction based on info/legends/history/make-believe and the authors adjust to fit. No offense to historians out there, but I would be more interested about OWOD “Dracula” in V:TM or V:TMBL. I always thought of Dracula as being Lasombra, mainly for the “Casts No Reflection” weakness, and I do not have any of the relevant source books so thanks for the information.

Also, I have had problems reading some of the post, please be considerate to us that do not use “instant text messaging” and not use shortcuts when writing your post.

Last, I have enjoyed playing all the clans in Bloodlines as each has there strengths and weaknesses. But I have always been partial to the Tremere, the real power behind the Camarilla, i.e. Max Strauss.

[docking]

Here are some thing i can inlighten you about:
1. Yes Romania is a latin country( even the name suggest that somming from Roma(Rome) the capital of the roman empire ).Only like 4-5% of tthe vocabulary is slavic.
2.Yes Vlad is one of our national heroes because of what he had done to protect the the country from the turks and the people from the greedy nobilityn of that time.Hes a hero as like his whole family: grandfather and father. Actualy Vlad empaled his first victims at 8 tears old when he was at a trial of his grandfather when he triald 2 turks emisaries who tried to assasinate him. This was his first judgement witch later he wanted to change but was too late.
3.yes the pamphlets r 90% not true because are inspiered from some letters witch i wrote about in a previous thread. All of the letters must have cantained almost the same thing because they had to seem true.( foe either side)
4.Actualy the letters were written by his cousin and then send to turckis and magyar courts. He was quite gelous of vlad and he wanted the throne so bad.... After that Vlad was inprissoned in a tower for 5 yers. He escaped , reclaimed the throne, empaled teh trators and his cousin but afte 2 years he was assasinated
5.That story of the people mass slaughtering it is true but not quite: first they were not poor, they were all members of the court and turk emisaries who planned to poisone Vlad in that very night. Vlad found out about it organized a feast, and when everyone was there he closed the doors and set the place on fire. so they weren't so poor and inocent.
Hope that was satisfing for u. If u want more give me your email and i will send you more.

[schlacta]

I have to admit that I was surprised and pleased to see the Tremere in the first Vampire game -- having been familiar with it from the RPG Ars Magica (another White Wolf creation) -- as just one of many mage houses. They were great. Total power-mongers, and the elders didn't tend to die or retire so much as fade into "final twilight", occasionally reappearing suddenly and temporarily spouting babble, much like David Bowie in Twin Peaks Fire Walk With Me. They also each bore the most interesting disfiguring tattoos as manifestations of their growing power.

[Chibigman]

Well I've only played with 4 clans right now (gangrel/malk/tremere and brujah) but atm the malk is my favorite. Their just so funny in speech and demention + obfuscate lv5 is almost unbeatable vamp ^^

[0wl]

Toreador, i like the fact that of all the clans they are the closest to humanity!

[corax]

Not my favorite clan to play otherwise, I'm all about the Malkavians in Bloodlines. Not because they're more fun (which they are) but they see through all the politics. I like the attitude of "you're all gonna play your little games anyway, so I might as well get my piece and tell you you're gonna fail while I'm at it." A Brujah would never get away with the things a Malk says.

Guess I've played in too many "serious" games.

[pennypincher]

Oh Geeze! I forgot that i was discussing something on here:
I find it hard to belive that you've mistaken the "methods {that} were typical for his period" for anything short of barbaric and inhumane. These people did rule by fear, and the Romans were often very little different.. At least at first. People often turned their understanding around when they started getting roads, hopsitals and education.
At an amazingly young age, Vlad was tourturing and killing invaders and traitors alike. At the time, no doubt, this was a thing of beauty, but it makes me blink to think that there are people on her trying to convince us of the fact that being slid down a wooden pole alive by a 10 year old is anything short of brutal and bloodthirsty and a tactic to enspire fear in your enemies. Lord knows -I- don't mess with 10 year olds that can order that done to me... And DO!
Nor would this be the first instance of violence for the sake of what was right in a manner so desperatly vile that it became almost as bad as the crime it was meant to be stopping. I'm sure the Spanish Inquisition springs to a lot of peoples minds, and the witch burnings... Sure, you might belive that Witches turned your cows milk sour, but burning a person alive is twisted!
As far as claims of leraning of poisioning attempts and such, well, suffice to say that history is written by the victors, and if a person regularly impales, burns or slaughters people, you just write what your damm well told. Still it might have been true... If it wasn't a case of paranoia over comming him, which was as popular as inbreeding in the old royal familes.. Thou maybe not so much in the Romanian familes, dont know much about that.
I know where Transilvania is, thanks all the same, I was helping people get an understanding about areas I meant. I know many of the Rom families have coped a lot of unfair slack, and I KNOW the Rom people have also been lumped with a lot of sterotypes (theives, gypsys, con artists) and thats mostly thanks to bad mouthing by surrounding areas and, sadly, TV who just LOVES to have a family of "cunning wandering Rom theives" wander into town.. Thank you Mr Television. However that doesn't change the fact that local lords of many disperate lands and kingdoms were often jealouse, harsh tyrants who held onto whatever they could, anyway they had to.
Anyway, you get the point.

[0wl]

Hence the saying: one countries hero is anothers mass murderer!

Fortunately i always try to keep an open mind, even when it involves tales/history/lore from my own "homeland", i advise others to do the same!

[urk333]

Definately malcavian, they are so hilarious to play and genious dialogue options and stuff, played the game 2 or 3 times with them (can never get threw Lacroix must die tho ) and their convo's never get old. Second favorite would probably be Gangrel or Brujah.

[nftybalt]

My favorite clan to play would be a malk or a ravnos but you cant have ravnos in this game which kinda sux. I like the malks cuz im crazy and so are they and it gives the game a twist because half the time you ask a question to answer someones questions so it makes the interaction with the npcs alot different then just sayin yes or no. and you get this cool dementation dialog and you can scare ppl with psycho babble.

[Perumummy]

Ventrue or Gangrel are definetely the best, both in PnP and the game. I like fortitude, its always great to tank your way through these games. I also enjoyed using dominate in conversations, trance for stealth missions and mass suicide for the swarms of human goons.

For Gangrel it was all about animalism. Using pestilence to get rid of swarms of people and watching the bats burst through people, plus both of those did good damage to bosses (80+).

[lostsoul]

ive only played as gangrel so far and i thought that was good ,but.. ive just started as a malkavian wow thats better, the dialogue is funny as hell. some of u people seem to know a little to much about all this vamp suff, ru breaking the masquerade tal;kin on here!?