Antediluvians & Methuselahs

[Scurifer]

Hello I'm the new guy but I've got and finished both vampire PC games and I've got plenty of World of Darkness books from werewolf, vampire, mage and demon. Not sure if this is the right forum for it but it's the only World of Darkness forum I could find.

If it ain't then I'll also asked somethings related to topic. Is it possible to save or protect your ghoul without making her leave? I got her to learn how to use a gun, not sure how useful that is. And I once had the option to the tell the cabbie at the end that I'd pretend to work for the Prince only to kill him in secret and take his place. Does that open up any different kind of ending?

A lot of people on this forum seem to know a lot about the Antediluvians like their discipline ratings, names and backgrounds. Can any of you tell me if there's a handbook for rules and info on the Elders and above. The Kindred that have stats above 5, especially the discipline and background ratings. Rules and tips. I have a Mage book that chronicles the Archmages, those with spheres of 6 and above and that's very good and very in-depth a really good read. And I'm pretty sure there's a book on the god-like spirits that the Garou worship. Not too sure about any other character type besides demon but do you know if there's a book like that for vampires. If so what's it called, I'd like to look for it but no one in my local store knows anything.

Oh and how did Ravnos or the Ravnos Antediluvian actually die? Some are saying the Technocracy sungun killed him, others the spirit nuke and others the Kuei-Jin. And how did they manage that, superior numbers or their own god-like Kuei-Jin? Do Kuei-Jin even have their equivalent of Antediluvians or do they worship spirits like mages and werewolves do?

[Lucita]

Wow...a lot of questions....

The official Vampire forums are at: http://www.white-wolf.com/vampire.html
I have no clue though if they are still discussing "Vampire: The Masquerade", cause they changed the system to "Vampire: The Requiem" last year.

Okay...stats for Anteliduvians...nope, never been puplished in any official Whitewolf product. Consider them having 10 in all Attributes, a host of skills and in their Clan Disciplines 10, in physical disciplines ( i.e. Potence ) 9 or 10, and in others at least 8 ( save a few of the special disciplines like Thaumaturgy ). They have a much larger Bloodpool then everyone else ( save Caine of course ). In effect, if they want something it's going to happen most of the times.

Metusalehs, those of the 4th to 6th generations, several of them and their stats have been published. Depending on how old they are, they are very powerfull, with 1 to 3 disciplines with a rating of 9 and a lot of others above 5 to 6 too. Of course it depends on how old they are, a 4th Generation Vampire who was embraced before 1000 B.C. is usually more powerfull then one embraced 1000 A.D. ( depending on how active he is ). Those of 5th and 6th Generations have lower stats and it all depends on their date of embrace and their activity.

Children of the Night, a sourcebook for Vampire describes a few 4th and 5th Generation Vampires, and a lot of other famous/infamous Kindred. In it is a description how to create Elder characters.

The Ravnos Anteliduvian awakened in mid 1999, maddening all his children in the process for around 1 week. Most Ravnos found the Final Death, maybe 200 survived his destruction...

His destruction was a combination of several factors, 3 elder Kuei-Jin fought it over Bangladesh, the Technocracy Mages brought a spiritual Nuke to explosion and after it was still not death they used their sungun to kill it.

There are no Kuei-Jin Anteliduvians, they are something different from Cainites.

[Faust]

SPOILER

As for saving the ghoul,I don't actually believe there's anyway of doing that and keepig her. You have several options, at various points in the game, to send her away. My inclination is that if you do that, you can probably save her from the end game scenario. I've never tried it, though, as you miss out on a lot.

As far as Antedilevians are concerned. There was never a book that came out exclusively about them. The final game supplement "Gehenna" is the most detailed regarding them. The "Time of Thinned Blood" supplement details the events concerning the Ravnos Antedeluvian that Lucita mentions. Stats are generally not given for these creatures of god-like power, simply because the White Wolf guys believe they have power that is vastly beyond the player's comprehension. Simply put, playing an Antedilevian is more of a mental exercise, than actual dice-rolling gaming.

There's quite a bit of information about the Methuseleh's, though. If by Methuseleh's we mean 4th-6th generation vampires who have been alive for quite some time, then tons of information can be found in various supplements - Children of the Night details some, Chicago Chronicles details at least 2, L.A. by Night details one, Kindred's Most Wanted has some in it, Children of the Inquisition does as well, etc. Most of the city or character based supplements detail at least one Methuseleh. You can get information on their extra (post 5) dots of discilpine in the Camarilla and Sabbat guides (though in many cases, the profiles will detail explicitely what the extra points do).

One supplement that details stats and connections for powerful elder vampires (it details how to run an elder campaign, as well) is "Elysium." I beleive that it was redacted and put into another supplement during the late 1990s revisions. I can't recall which, though.

[pennypincher]

Yeah, "Elysium" is a guide to making Elder Vampires and a damm fine book.. BUT, don't just jump into elders head first. It's a very VERY difficult and confusing and political game that can span hundres of years In Game and maybe 3-4 years out of game just to get through the layers of lies and into the nitty gritty.

The Time Of Judgment books are the only books to detail any powers at level 10. And I quote:

"Any Discpline at Level 10: Plot Hook"
At this level, it's assumed that the Antedeluvian need only want something that is in some way related to that power for it to happen, and it's a totaly world changing plot hook idea. If Ventrue wanted an army, he'd dominate all humans, if Lasombra wanted a shady place to sit, he'd blot out the sun, if Brujah wanted to bury treasure, he'd lift up the corner of Everest and slide the treasure under it... Here's hoping he/she/it doesn't treasure YOU.

[Scurifer]

Thanks, I wasn't expecting so many responses so fast. I'll really have to start looking cause that's a lot of information.

And when I meant Kuei-Jin antediluvians I didn't mean as in grandsires, I know that Kuei-Jin are very different from Kindred in that respect. What I meant was are their god-like Kuei-Jin equivalents to the antediluvians. The Mages have their Oracles and archmages hiding out beyond the Horizon. The vampires have their antediluvians, methuselahs and those before them hiding out somewhere and so do the Demons in their Earthbounds. And even werewolves have their legendary warriors and Celestines. Do Kuei-Jin have anything similar? Cause I know virtually everything else doesn't. No god-like Hunters, no obvious fae gods or wraith gods that I know of.

[Lucita]

They have something similar in power to an Antelidivian or Metusaleh, how exactly they are called or what powers they have, I don't know. I never read that much about the Kuei-Jin. If you want to read the whole story about the Week of Nightmares, when the Ravnos Anteliduvian awoke. Check out the last pages of the "Time of Thin Blood" Sourcebook.

[Faust]

The "Kindred of the East" books don't have the darkness or hopelessness that permeates the Vampire the Masquerade materials. The Asian vampires are out to serve the cause of heaven, or bringing about harmony in the Ying and Yang worlds. Most of the Kuei-Jin are in a constant state of striving to attain enlightenment (juxtaposed against the darker concept of trying to fend off the Beast in the Vampire mythology).

As such, while there are old and powerful Kuei-Jin there are no hidden Antediluvian types waiting to devour their childer. There are, also, Bodhisattva, which are those vampires who have nearly attained dah (a sort of Golconda, or ultimate enlightenment), but chosen to forego it in order to help others proceed along that path (These are generally old and powerful Kuei-Jin. I believe it was some of these that aided in the fight against the Ravnos Antediluvian). You also have "Ancestors," who are sort of the equivalent to the Prince of a given region. They are, generally, an older Kuei-Jin of considerable power who controls a given region.

The "darker" side of the Asian of the East story (and, you're right, every White Wolf game has it) is the "Yama Kings", or those dark malevolent spirits who hold the territories in the outer reaches of the Yin and Yang worlds. Yama Kings of often seek to subvert Kuei-jin to their service. Ultimately, the Kuei-Jin believe that in the coming Sixth Age, which will be marked by an apocalypse, the Yama Kings will rule.

Anyway, that's pretty much how I understand it. I'm not as well versed in the KoE stuff as others are, I'm sure, as I've only dabbled in it some.

[pennypincher]

For the KoE, I THINK the oldest and most powerful vampires are.. Mandarin? I'm not sure. Either way, yes, the three KoE that battled Ravnos and lost were the three most powerful and deadly KoE in the world. They stormed out there intent on killing the barbarian blood monster, and found only death. I can sorta sum it up for you.

Ravnos: *Yawn* man.. I havent heard so many thin bloods dying in ages! i gotta get up and see whats going on. Uh oh! I'm in frenzy! Dang!

3 KoE Elders: Disruptive gijin devil! Die and stay dead!

Ravnos: Nu Uh! Mumma said knock you out!!

3 KoE Elders: Woah! This blood monsters is sorta, you know, awesome! This battle will take many days.. But if the sun rises, we will be killed. We will create a spell that blots out the sun!

*KoE blot out the sun*

Ravnos: Sweet! Now I can take my time killing you!

2 KoE Elders: Urgh! We die!

1 KoE Elders: This is whack! I outtie!

Ravnos: Not so fast!!

Technocracy Mage desk pleb: Um, sir, the magical sattalies have picked up a massive disturbance that promises to crush out all life

Techno Mage MIB: Well, drop 3 spirit nukes on it, that should take care of it. And get me some coffee!!

*Technocrates drop 3 spirit nukes on ravnos, crushing out all life*

1 KoE Elder: Ugh! Now it's my turn to die, ya know??

Ravnos: Ha! Nukes? Eat my Foritude 10 and whimper like pathetic babies! Now I pwn you all!

Techno Mage Desk Pleb: Sir, it didn't die, and now it's speaking in l337.

Techno Mage MIB: Poot! No wait, the suns comming up.

Ravnos: Owie! Those dead asian dudes aren't around to block out the sun no more. This bites.

Techno Mage MIB: Hey, don't we have sun reflecting sattalites we use to kill ants at long range?

Techno Mage Desk Pleb: Sure, whatever.

*Technocrates use magic sun mirrors on ravnos*

Ravnos: Wait, don't I have Chimestry 10? Why can't I just use that to say theres no sun??

White Wolf Staff: Shut up!! The story is no good if you just WIN! Sheesh.

*Ravnos burns, White Wolf make money, Technocrates deny all knowladge*
The End!

[Lucita]

Muahahahaha....that was funny....and quite accurate...lol

[malky]

Penny,
Where do you come up with this stuff? Maybe I just missed class on the day of the Antediluvian discussion, but WTH was that?

[Lucita]

That was the Standup Comedy version....it was quite the accurate comedy version of the real thing....Very funny...

[Scurifer]

That was the funniest thing I've ever read. Seriously. Most importantly I suppose that means my previous theory of "Kuei-Jin are not as tough or as smart as they reckon they are" was true.

Of course that also means Tremere is probably the most powerful antediluvian even if really only a 1000 years old. I mean he's got Auspex 10, he'd see everything coming and use Dominate 10 to rally all mortals and the like to his side then Thaumuturgy all paths 10 and turn all his foes into garden gnomes. That kids is why Sphere 10 archmages either no longer care about reality, have moved past it or are stuck beyond the horizon. Instead of being Paradox immune immortal bastards with Fortitude 9 for soaking ICBMs and meteorites. You know that's got to make for some pretty difficult roleplaying with so much power.

And Nosferatu wouldn't have all attributes 10, his appearance would still be 0 unless she got Tzimicse to teach him Vissicitude.

I suppose that means Kuei-Jin are like Garou in respects of power and cosmic position. They're both all born or reborn into the role of a cosmic protector and are thus powerful to begin with but as per their role in the grand scheme of things aren't as potentially powerful. Opposed to Vampires, Mages and Demons who are all born weak and pathetic but as they get older they all transcend into city shaking, sun bloting, planet moving pimp daddies with big egos and weird plot device endings generally revolving around somekind of apocalypse, armageddon, transcendence, gehenna, torment blahblahblah!!!?????

Despite all that I still love White Wolf stuff more than anything else, and all that dark apocalyptic hoodoo only makes it better.

[Lucita]

Tremere is after Augustus Giovanni the least powerfull Antediluvian....

Thaumaturgy is only up to 5 ( sure there are paths and rituals ), but there is no Thaumaturgy 10. Creating rituals, like the one which Tremere created to bind the Assamite for nearlly 600 years, so they can't drink any Kainite blood, take years to research. And the above mentioned ritual was destroyed by Ur-Shulgi ( a 4th Generation Assamite, the Avatar or Haqim ) in a matter of days.

The most powerful Anteliduvian ( if he still lives ) probably would be Ventrue, his powers of Domination and Presence must be awesome !!!
But all these creatures have godlike powers, so it's hard to tell....

Arikel/Ishtar ( the founder of the Toreador ) would be so beautiful, nobody could resist her. If she asks you to kill yourself you would do it.
Tzimisce exists in all his childer, and everyone who ever diablerist or drunk of their Vitae ( goodbye Sabbat, oh and goodbye Tremere, then they became vampires by using Tzmisce blood ).
Lasombra is pure darkness, shadowstuff, a black void with a rage that is uncontrollable.
Absimiliard ( Nosferatu ) hates everyone including himself. He once was the most beautiful Anteliduvian, until Caine cursed him with his monsterlike appearance. He probably wants to kill everyone ( Potence 10 and Obfuscation 10, shouldn't be a problem, and he got his direct childer, the Nictuku, the are the most feared monsters around ).
Haqim ( Assamite ), he is like the desertwind, he left his childer when they started arguing between themselves ages ago. He lets those survive who are worthy ( and that aren't many ).
Augustus Giovanni, he never became a true 3rd Generation Vampire, his Sire's ( Ashur/Cappadocius ) soul left his body before getting diablerized.

Just a few examples...

[Faust]

Actually, in later White Wolf mythology Saulot (remember, one of the more powerful Antediluvians, who Tremere sucked the life force out of to gain his power)makes a come back. After centuries of internal struggle, he asserts his will over Tremere and claims Tremere's form. Tremere is cast into the body of the Sabbat Tremere antitribi (and his former discipline) Goratrix. Tremere is, thus, reduced to a measly fourth generation (wimp!) and is, thus, no longer a Antediluvian at all.

That said, I'd hardly call Thaumaturgy a weak discipline. Thaumaturgy, itself, does not cap at 5. It is true, however, that individual paths do cap at 5. Still, with Thaumaturgy a Tremere could potentially do, well, about anything. And even more powerful things can be accomplished through group rituals. It's for that reason that the Tremere are so widely feared and mistrusted (well among other reason...). Most consider them possessing the potentially most powerful discipline and one of the true weapons against the Antediluvians (as this is a power that the Antideluvians wouldn't have). Given, Thaumaturgy is not as flashy to a young Cainite like some of the other disciplines, but it can grant the Tremere with vast power down the road.

Anyway, as far as Antediluvians are concerned, I'd be careful about too readily assigning an order to the remainding Antediluvians in power. These are beings who, in White Wolf mechanics, really defy stats. Each being is god-like in power. And, if we must assign them stats, it can probably be safely assumed that most of the Antediluvians are near the max in almost all the disciplines.

[pennypincher]

Didn't Goratrix end up in a mirror, Tremere in Goratrix, Saoult in Tremere, and Timzisce in all of them??