Vampire the Masquerade and Requiem

As some of you play the actual rpg I was wondering if any of you have gone to the Requiem system or stayed with V:TM

I've set my group up to start Gehenna but am easily able to back out and before i get to the point of no return I want to know if I should stay with the old system or move on

I stay with the old game, though I won't play Gehenna for now. In my setting there is still some time until Gehenna happens. After years and years of little spoilers and interesting facts, Gehenna came to fast for me and I would have loved a more interesting ending...a better view of why it happens, what exactly happens and so on....

Sooner or later I will play Requim for a bit, just to get a feel for it, but that's still some time away....

My campaign is a bit bizarre. Essentially, I decided that I liked the new rule system, but did not prefer the new world. The d10 rules are much easier for players to learn, much more practical to apply, and are generally very balanced (take celerity for example; it's no longer any better than the other disciplines). So, we're using the VtR rules, while following the VtM storylines.

My major problem with the VtR world is that it lacks some of the intensity and mystery of the old world. Part of that it is because that world is still in development. Personally, I just really enjoy the apocalypticism, biblical mythology, and sect rivalry that pervades the old world. An inkling of it is still present in the new world, but it isn't as well fleshed out yet. The clans and sects have really been simplified, in a way I'm not thoroughly thrilled with. I like my Malkavians as a full and distinct clan, not some odd off shoot bloodlines. It basically feels like VtM lite to me.

Still, don't let me discourage you. The new world isn't *bad*, it just lacks the depth and development of the new world. And, quite frankly, the New Orleans setting they are coming out with now is making me contemplate switching. I'd encourage you to take a look at the VtR book and decide for yourself. White Wolf has also put together a really good (and comprehensive) full text adventure freely available on the web regarding the new system. I would encourage you to take a look at it. I really like the adventure and have been looking for effective ways to use it in my existing campaign.

Edit: I had to remove the link to your website, please read the forum rules. No links to personal websites except in your signature. -jopperm2

My two cents is a lot more... Forwards:

The new system is the biggest load of rubbish I have EVER seen. Without going into confusing detail for those who don't play the game, it can be summed up as this.

A police officer walks into an alley and sees a hobo going through a garbage bin. Being the world of darkness, he decides to belt the guy a few times with his night stick. The hobo, none to shockingly, decides he doesn't want to be hit.
6 times out of ten, the cop will not hit the hobo at all
3 times out of ten, the cop will clobber the hobo, but deal little to no dammage that the hobo will heal in a few hours.
1 time in ten, the cop will shove the night stick down his own throat and nearly kill himself.

In addition:
Martial artists are some of the most well trained and graceful hand to hand combatants in the world. However, the ability to use their martial arts now requires them to either be EXTRA SPEICAL and take a D&D-esque feat, or to be muscle bound Arnie clones... Thats right... Hitting someone is now a matter of Strength.

In addition:
Most of the "new" clans, bloodlines and sects sound like something a 14 year old just learning about sex wrote in a vampire fan fiction where Buffy fights demons. Ordo Dracul? WTF is that? A bunch of goths dressed up in re-stiched nightys and capes running around going "Blah BLAH, I am der zon of dwwwacula!"

In addition:
Nosferatue now get Presence!? Oh sorry... Nightmare!

In addition:
What happened to vampires having cool powers? Now your not only just as likley to swallow your keys by accident as you are to start your car, but your blood is as thin as water and your powers all rubbish.

In addition:
Elder vampires are no longer.. Elder at all. For some STRANGE reason, White Wolf decided it would be cool if all the oldest, most powerful vampires turned back into neonates every time they had a nap. Yeah, right, fear the power of the elders... No wait, it's nap time, kill them.

In addition:
I now have to PAY points to have friends?? I'm sorry, what? Knowing people is a merit? What if I don't want to pay for stupid Feats.. Oh sorry.. Merits? Does that mean I've spent the last 50 years in my haven not moving or interacting with anyone? Sorry, but kiss my behind!

In addition:
My character sheet now looks like "Role playing for beginners"... No longer can my character be interesting and speical, now there are few enough abilities that everyone can be a Ninja Dr Lawyer Fireman.

In addition:
What the HELL was up with Gehenna? The most acient, wise, cunning evil beings in the world rise from their graves with a thirst for destruction. After years and years of moving their childe like pawns in a great game, so secret and twisted that none even truly knew they were playing.. Did they conduct a great end to their secret war? No. Did they take command of nations from the shadows, using their wit and guile to sway mankind? No. Did they summon their children to them and formulate great plans and give each their final role in the jyhad? No... They pretty much got up and pulled each others hair and clawed at each other like girls.
"Ahhh, at last, after 10,000 years I have risen to be ruler of the earth. I shall be the new God, and all shall know fear."
"Nu uh!"
"Oh you meanie! Let ME be the God for once!"
"Oh thats it, I'm gonna give you SUCH a pinch."
*Antdeulvians turn their heads away from each other so as not to get their faces hurt and start slapping at each other*

... Seriously people... Unless you have some overwhelming desire to insult yourself, you'll stick with the original game. In addition to that, you'll forget stupid things from the original game like Samedi, acient affrican bloodlines, gargoyles as PC's, the Black Hand having an Antedeluvian in their basement, the daughters of the loudness and other odd smells issuing forth from hidden little books around the place.

This has nothing to do with the computer game, so it's being moved to the Pen 'n Paper Discussion forum. I'll leave a redirect, though.

Fable - any chance of renaming the thread to indicate its content a bit more, then?

Not big on change, eh? Well I can sympathize. The new world seems to lack much of the vision to the old one. It also focuses more on mechanics than the last world. This ends up subtracting from its worth, I think. I miss my White Wolf creators who cared nothing about coherent rules, but were all focused on telling a good story. Alas, that era seems to be behind us.

Still, I think you paint an overly bleak picture.

In terms of rules, it feels like a "cleaned up" system to me. It's actually a pretty comparable system to the old one, once you get into the mechanics. The major difference is there's more overarching consistency to it. I won't go too deep into mechanics, but its a fairly simple system to get down. You have tasks, dice pools which determine your ability to complete said tasks that are based on a combination of an attribute and skill, then you have modifiers applied by difficulty (is this an overly easy action, well then you need less successes to complete the task? Likewise, perhaps terrain or some other aspect of the task makes it more difficult, you have to have more successes.). And there is a fixed number for successes - a roll of 8. In my opinion, it works well and is easy to learn. The dice pools also make much more logical sense too (attributes and skills are divided into three categories that correspond fairly effectively). Get into the mechanics a bit, from the link I gave you earlier, and you can see my point. It's a much simpler, and in my opinion more logical rules system.

One other thing I really do like about the new system, is that White Wolf -for the first time in recorded history - is actually attempting to make their rules between different WoD games be essentially the same. This is very nice. I don't have to make up rules when bringing Werewolves or Magi into my game, what a concept! My players actually prefer the new rules system, and many aren't crying for the coherency of D&D anymore. However like anything else, its not going to gel for some. If you're players love the VtM rules, then it will work fine for them. My players and friends hated VtM rules. So we've rediscovered the genre with the new system.

Many of the issues you've illuminated actually make fairly decent sense to me. Basically, they've introduced fighting styles to the game. These are not cheap to acquire, and they offer some very interesting benefits. Certainly, I don't see the huge problem in these styles. You can still hit a person without any fighting techniques, you just receive some added techniques to use (which have varying defensive and offensive advantages) with such things as boxing and kung-fu. Likewise, in the scenario you mentioned, I can really envision a scenario when anyone but the most unlucky player would miss hitting the bum. This kind of thing was possible in the old system, as well. So I really don't get your point on it. Spectacular failures are just a dice rolling tool, ultimately the outcome of one like all things WoD is up to the Storyteller. So I don't understand why their existence is troublesome. They are fairly rare, for that matter.

I also don't get your problem with the Contacts merit? Didn't they basically exist before? Anyway, I like the character creation system better, in some ways. I was always resentful of how easily the merit/flaw system lent itself to player abuse in the old game. That has been largely fixed. Flaws are role playing tools that earn you experience when you role play them out. Likewise, merits are part of backgrounds. I like it, personally.

Still, I agree with you about the clans. I hate the new clan distinctions. I'm trying to be open-minded about it, though. Possibly, the simpler system will work for a new batch of players and I'm just being reluctant to change. Basically, the idea now is to make "bloodlines" the new rule of thumb in WoD. I dont' care for it, but it may grow on me in time.

I do think some of the Disciplines have retained their "coolness" (and I actually like the Nightmare discipline. It seems fitting for a Nosferatu, and goes well with the boogeyman imagery they are trying to get across). Many of the disciplines have remained unchanged, for that matter. I'm not sure which disciplines you have a real problem with. I've not heard this complaint often about the new system.

Still, I have to agree entirely with you about blood potency and torpor. I just hate the move from generations to blood potency. The idea of someone losing their power when they nap in the way they mention, sort of undermines the entire apocalptyptic White Wolf universe I knew and love. However, again, I haven't studied the ramifications of it fully. It may not be as dire news as it initially sounds to me.

And, yes, Gehenna stunk. It was definitely not something that a lot of effort was put in. The actual Gehenna sourcebook ended up being decent, and allowing for a lot of Storyteller discretion. Certainly, the whole affair was rushed (well, for something that was looming for years, it kind of just "hit" without much appropriate build-up or dragging it out). I was quite upset with how they did it.

What name were you looking for and I'll be happy to change it for you.

Oh, I just meant something to designate that it was about VtM and VtR material. Something more specific. Perhaps - "Questions about Vampire Pen and Paper Game." Just thought since it moved forums, a more descriptive header might be good. But its linked in the other forums, so it may not be an important issue. Thanks!

Let me know if you'de like something different. Otherwise it has been done.

I've downloaded the sample mission for white wolf and am going to run it to see what it's like and get the feel but so far i've got the feeling that i'm going to be staying with the old system

It's actually Vampire the Requiem, not Redemption. Sorry, I should have spelled that out!

I've played Vampire: The Masquarade a couple of times, and I find it a nice change when I've played D&D for months. But it's not a RPG that I will play for a year week in week out....with D&D that's no problem for me

I find Vampire is best for weekend long binges like once a month or quarter.

Well, I'd have to dissagree with much of this Faust. I think "cleaned up" and "simpler" and "logical" could be reaplced with "basic" "inane" and "tripe"... But thats just me. The set difficulty is FAR too high, and modifying that for circumstances was already an option in all the White Wolf games to date. Increase or reduce the target number, or the number of Sux's required in order to represent an easy or more difficult task... Now the game plays like a D&D style action rampage, where you need to find bigger and better "magical items" to reduce your target number down to something reasonable or max out your dice pools to allow you to achive simple tasks. We have rolled out this system a number of times, and always found that 8 is too hight to represent a standard human ability to do basic things. I shouldn't need the aid of objects around be to perform every day tasks that I'm more then capable of doing... nor should I need to be AMAZINGLY good at those tasks in order not to need to roll to do them.
I also find it confusing how you can call the combat system logical, given that most wounds are healed at a rate which your local GP would call "inhuman" and actualy hitting someone has become a comical effort of missing and, on an average of 1-10 times, missing so drasticaly that you hurt yourself or your friends. The last I saw, very few people end up winning fights just by backing away a little.

Your right about the mixing of the games being a headache no longer, that was nice of them... Now if only they had done it in a setting and system I didn't feel insulted playing, I would have been over the moon.

The new fighting systems make NO sense at all. Once I've spent my points in Brawl, why am I still swingging at people with Strength?? Am I a well trained idiot?? Do i just constantly bend my head down and run at my enemy hoping my overpowering strength and the firmness of my skull will triumph? Once you've taken Brawl 3, if you say to me "I'm a well trained martial artist" I say "Yes, yes you are!" I shouldn't be required to pay extra points that go into giving my character life and a personal touch just to not be a thug who doesn't know how to place a punch despite his brawl 5. Also, it focuses everything on strength too greatly. Before, being strong could be good, being dexterous could be good and being tough could be good... Now You could quite happily just be tough and strong and not worry about your speed or ability to swing dead on target, after all.. Sux's to hit AND damage are both the same trait now. Basicly, in a story telling system, if my player says to me "I take both hands and just slam hard into him" I should be at my discression to decide he's using Strength to hit... Not be sitting around hearing people try and find ways to describe using dexterity to hit.. What do you say? "I.. You know.. Punch AT him!"
Finaly, why should a person be forced to spend points to be individual? If you want to say "I learnt Judo" and you have decent brawl, then fine... If you want to say it was Boxing... Then fine.. Hell, if you want it to be "Pulling hair and slapping" you do your thing, why should you have to spend points beyond getting the ability?

As for missing the hobo, it happens all the time. Observe the new system in action:
Police office: Str 3? Melee 1 maybe 2 if he was speicalised for some reason... But normaly about 4 dice. Walks into alley, goes to hit Hobo.

Hobo: Dex 2 dodge 2.. Lets face it, he lives on the street, mostly running away and getting out of the way. 4 dice defense.

Hobo: I'll go full defensive, that doubles my defense total, for some reason.
Cop: Damm, that 8 defense reduces my attack below 0, that means I get one "fate" dice, that if it comes up a 1 botches... At diff 8, my chances of hitting are slim to none, and 1 time in 10 if the averages work out I should accidently club myself in the face knocking out most of my teeth.
ST: Um, that makes no sense, so.. Have +2 dice for having a club!
Cop: Well, thats still not enough, so now 1 time in 10 I'm clubbing myself in the face and doing +2 dammage. How about I just shoot him, it's less risky!
ST: Okay, Hobo you can't use defense against ranged attacks
Hobo: Why not?
ST: Because... Um... Nobody, er, ever... Makes themselves.. A harder target, by moving.
Hobo: Oh, clearly, I see the error of my ways.

And lets say the cop DOES mannage to get his 1 sux.. Hmm.. str 3, club +2.. 5 dice.. Take away Hobo soak of 2 and 1 for a big old trench coat and two under shirts he wears to keep from dying of cold.. so 2 dice.. at diff 8? 1 sux if your VERY lucky SOMETIMES.. And with the new healing times, a cop could club at a hobo for hours, maybe even days, without knocking him out. Homless people of the world, if your reading this, UNITE!

As for the contacts merit... Um, why am I paying good points to KNOW people?? Was I kept in a cage all my life? Before we got starting background points, which we could spend on basic human things.. I know people, I have a job.. Done... Now I have to spend the extra points that normaly go to filling out the character to even KNOW someone?! So my choices are... Have friends, or know how to work a computer better but have been tied to the computer chair your entier life. Oh I'm sorry, did you want to start with money?? Say from your job and your family? Well TOO BAD! You either had a high school education OR a job, make up your mind.
However, I agree with the 7th Sea-esque rewards system for flaws. FINALY!

Bloodlines urk me as well. For Vampires, who are meant to be eternal and unchanging, they sure do.. You know... Change an awful lot! And evolve into new groups...

The new powers are like some video game! Most (including the physical ones) now require blood to power them, meaning vampires have to become walking, vcumus blood bags pausing mid fight to refule, leaving 8 second intervals of ferice fighting before each combatant backs away and grabs the nearest mortal, re-fills and goes at each other again. Also Nosferatue now get the cool powers Presence USED to have, like fear, which seems right in theory, but just sucks the fun out of being majestic and beautiful and terrible at once for the other clans.

Sadly, blood potency is as bad as you fear. While you retain your powers and stats, your blood pool and ability to spend drops right back to neonate status. Worse yet, you are FORCED into the elder torpor every so often, so you can never really have powerful elder vampires, only whimpering neonate vampires with a lot of powers they can't afford to spend to use. This also means that things like Great Old Vampires from the old world awakening are no longer amazing and terrifying events, now the clanless dog from down the street could bump into this newly awoken Elder, pump faster then him and have more blood left in him for healing, whoop him sensless and send him on his way, dusting his hands off disdainfuly.

Yeah, Gehenna made me whimper like a little puppy.

I believe that putting points in Contacts isn't so much for day-to-day connections, but rather big important connections, ones with a great amount of influence. Aside from that, from looking at the new system, I'm inclined to agree that they did something really twisted with it.

In some cases, they munchkin'd it up, where in others, they seemed to nerf it horribly.

I never played the PnP games, but if the setting is New Orleans, I'd have to say I'd be tempted (grew up in the New Orleans area). I'd know where to hide around the St Louis Cathedral, at least.

The setting is wherever you want it to be. The Storyteller sets those parameters themself. New Orleans is a great setting though. My wife gre up there around the Seminary and I have visited a few times. It would be a good place to play.

As much as I like the old System for the WoD, the new system does bring forth a lot more userfriendly and less cheap means of having fun.

Not to mention, its no longer a Great Jyhad, but a secret war between vampire and vampire and covenant and covenant which would be known as an endless dance in which all vampires slowly move to at the sounds of a haunting requiem.

In Old WoD Humanity didn't play a big role, yet in the new setting, it has more of a role in its play then anything else.

Personally, I like the old system, but I have played with the new system over a year now and find it to my likeing a lot more.

So, as much as I will miss being an Assamite or a Ravanos, I will enjoy being a Deava Ordo Dracul or a Gangrel Circle of the Crone.

- Sin

While browsing the forum index, I came upon this thread which caught my eye. I have a few questions. What is this Vampire the Masquerade the Pen & Paper version? Is there any resemblance between the computer game version of Vampires: the Masquerade and the pen & paper version? This is the first time I've heard of a Pen & Paper version of this game.

Vampire has been a part of the World of Darkness PnP system by White Wolf for many years and was quite successful.

It was a top selling RPG many years before it became a computer game. World of Darkness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's a decent description of the whole shebang including the other games in WOD and details on Vampire.