Arvall & Deed Out of game: Well it looks like we have abit of a jiffy here. I've never been aware of the 1d4 + strength vs HD knock out rule. To be honest I'm wonder what the balance is for that since HD for PC's is generally there RACE CR which I've limited to 1 or less + class levels - 1. In layman's terms... PC HD = PC Level, which means that fighters could easily knock out other fighters at full health just if they happen to have a low-to-mid level, like say 5... where as doing the same thing one a high level wizard would be impossible, not because the wizard dodged or is made of stone but simply becuase his HD is uber. Scarrier still is it can be used by any class with a decent-to-great STR bonus. Quick example Orc Fighter with +5 STR bonus, not all that crazy if you think about it. Even at lvl.1 he could knock down a lvl.6 PC rolling a 1 on a d4, and heaven forbid he gets a 4. 4+5=9th level... holy cow. Get some mage or cleric casting bull strength on that and you got yourself an outstanding war-machine at level 1. Granted it's realistic... but game balance would go out the window. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying your lying or that I call BS on the attack against HD. I'm definitely going to have to look into it there has to be some limits or counter-measures or else this would be something that would be on a bunch of forums as a enormous tactic to exploit. The fortitude save thing was basically a DM call. There's no rules for it, but it just made sense to me at the time, fortitude save to be made against being knocked out from a surprise blow to the back of the head. The DC being 10+damage seemed logical and I assumed the 1d4 was because you were restricting your strength. SO, to fix all this right now. I'm going to let Deed use his second roll which is the 1d8+strength. In this case resulting in damage 9, and fortitude DC 19 vs knock-out. Only works with bludgeoning weapons on a sneak attack on creatures up to one size large than the attacker. Quote me on it, unless people think it could be buggy in the future, but for now it should be good. So Arvall is at 26/35 hp. Arvall's Fortitude vs Deed's KO hit DC:22 > 19 Arvall's tumble vs DC 16: 15 < 16 Arvall is smacked on the back of the head hard by Deed's mace. The impact jars him and send wobbling. Arvall struggles to stay on his feet... and staggers around for two steps before falling to the ground prone. Deed by now notices it isn't a drow, it's actually a half-elf. But an intruder is still and intruder and from the tone of shouting outside it sounds like he's not too popular. Deed attempts to pin the interlopper... Now, Deed doesn't have rope on him. The basic Cleric gear doesn't supply it. So Deed has one of two options to pin Arvall: A) Sleight of hand skill check, if this succeeds I then use your use rope skill check roll to have him tied. Meanwhile Arvall can attempt to resist using an apporiate skill or action. B) Grapple check (You get +4, he's on the ground and he's just been blugendoned, however that's spelt), Arvall can resist using reflex, escape artist or his own grapple check.