4000 years without improvement?

[Jack Dell]

It felt kind of annoying to me that KOTOR I and II are situated 4000 years before the movies and yet everything looks just as advanced or even more advanced than in the movies. It's almost as if the universe is not advancing at all technologically, which I find annoying to force myself to believe even in a fictional universe. TM-34 actually looks more advanced than R2-D2, the latter looking like a waste disposal bin. Also, I found the fact that personal shield generators existed quite annoying, and really only just an excuse to include melee weapons. One of the things that I liked so much about the movies is the fact that even though there was a great technology everything looked kind of tattered, used and old. Places like Tatooine in such an advanced universe and the relationship between precarious sand and mud architecture with all kinds cute little devices and moisture vaporators and floating droids was excellent.

But never mind that, let's talk about combat technology. It seems as if actually the things in KOTOR are a lot more advanced than in episode 1. Now this probably has a lot to do with the fact that the first movie was done in the seventies and that that probably was an important factor in determining the the way (through CGs and all that) to show off such a world that perhaps was not available at an earlier stage. But still it just seems as if they wanted to make a storyline far away from all others that we know and yet everything is exactly the same or more advanced? I really don't feel the passage of time. Maybe someone who knows more about the Star Wars universe can tell me? bur really between Han Solo's rusted trail worn blaster and Ordo's Heavy repeater it's almost as if there has been an involution of technology.
Dunno, opinions?

[Admo]

Well by the time you get to the original trilogy, Episodes 4-6, there more or less has been an "involution" in technology. After Palpatine took over very little moved forward, and indeed moved back. Which is why everything there looks a bit run-down, and even the Empire's technology is more about terror and fear than being super effective. All those walkers for example, if you saw one in front of you you'd probably need a change of underwear, but if you were then told all you had to do was wrap its legs together you'd realise how silly it is.

As for the others, a lot can happen in 4000 years. Don't forget even in the time of these stories the republic is in decay, just as it is again in the prequels. And the Star Forge, an ancient technological wonder, is far behond anything the republic has ever seen in these games.

Put simply, war and empires expanding and collapsing tends to throw things around

[Aegis]

Well, think of it this way. Technology can really only advance so far. The Star Wars universe is one that is highly established, have thousands, if not tens of thousands of years worth of history. Technology usually only reaches such a point, before people are limited by means and materials.

not only that, but add to the fact the, as was mentioned, the Republic was begining somewhat of a decline, having just finished the Mandalorian Wars (which hurt the Republic something fierce), and then being immediately thrust into a losing war with the Sith. Furthermore, as time went by in the universe, the Republic constantly had the threat of the sith, not to mention other forces, eventually leading up to the Hallowed Trilogy.

Now, according to the D20 rules for Star Wars, personal shields and such do exist, but they are expensive. More than the common person would have, and too much to outfit an entire army with.

As for Tattoine. This is a Fringe would, one controlled by the Hutts. Essentially, it is oppressed. The same is true for many of the fringe worlds. You can't base the core systems of that galaxy by what you see in the outer rim of it. Compared to Corusant, Tattoine is a extremely backwater.

I hope that clears some things up. As for me, it's late, and I'm off to bed.

[fable]

Aegis, as I can't reach you email, would you clean out your PM box? I've tried sending you PMs three times, and gotten them bounced back. This is mod business, so I really need to reach you. Thanks.

[Chimaera182]

Well, KotOR does involve weapons like vibroblades and swords, and you don't exactly see those in the movies (but I know they're at least in the books). And the thing about the technology being the same, if not better, in the KotOR games than it is in the original trilogy kind of goes without saying. War technology is sometimes like that. After the Republic beats the Sith, there's supposed to be so long before the next war (against the Confederacy), and a peaceful civilization like the Republic isn't likely to have huge stashes of weapons and ships onhand, so they sometimes have to design them from scratch (like how they get the weapons, armor, ships from Kamino). So things won't be as advanced then as they were in the height of the wars between both the Mandalorians and the Sith Empire.

As for the walkers, I always thought the ones they used in Attack of the Clones were more advanced than the ones you see in The Empire Strikes Back. But this time it's not really the blame of technology in the movie as it is technology OF the movie. So, yes, the walkers look pretty crappy later. And frankly the whole "terror" point is valid, but you would think seeing either kind of walker would instill the same amount of fear once you realize its the enemy. Then again, the walkers ARE supposed to be transports (All Terrain Assault Transports), so maybe AT-ATs just carry more troops and keep them higher off the ground and supposedly out of danger. Their primary purpose is to be heavily-fortified troop carriers, so maybe the AT-ATs, in that regard, are better than whatever those walkers in AoTC were called.

As for personal shields, there's probably a few scattered around the galaxy, but after such a long period of peace, you couldn't just find anyone who would sell them. It would be a select market, and it wouldn't be profitable to try and sell them to anyone else anywhere else.

[ahhsai]

actually, T3-M4 is less advanced then R2-D2,it is only fitted with computer and security slicing skills, and shallow reapair skills. however the R2 series is more advanced as they and able to repair damaged starships while in battle, they are more versatile,as in they are able to go submersible for a short period of time, and they also have the ability the "fly" for a period of time (imagine that, a flying garbage can.....)plus, their computer hacking and repair skills are far more superior to T3's. and T3-M4 is a specially made model, so other droids of the same model are less capable and are not able of combat, but R2 is the same as other units, so in a sense the doids did inprove in that time.

the time of the attack of the clones is also less advance to the empire,just take the AT-AT walkers and the AT-TEs (the walkers in the attack of the clones), the AT-TEs fire PROJECTILES, and the AT-ATs are armed with light blasters,and under them they have HEAVY LASER CANNONS, you'll be nuts if you think that projectiles can outgun laser cannons, laser can hit their targets with more acuracy and speed than projectiles, and they also dun have to compensate for wind , angle, distance, lack of ammo etc.

and the fact that the heavy repeating blasters seen in the battle of hoth have tirpods in order to fire (if they dun need them the millemium falcon will be smoking ani ways) prove that they produce more power then that canderose uses.

so in short, the technology did improve, not backwards

[Admo]

Well a tripod is generally used to support a heavy weapon, simply to give greater accuracy, because it is impossible to hold a heavy weapon like that and aim it properly. Don't forget that Canderous is a Mandalorian as well, not long after their hay-day, so he is built for that kind of thing.

I agree with some things, but some things still seem a bit more backward with the galaxy. Not sure if its just the atmosphere and ambience, but things just feel less sophisticated with everything after the demise of the Old Republic.

[JediKt]

Obi-Wan said that "for over 1000 generations the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." Given that a generation is generally defined as 20 - 25 years, we're talking about the Old Republic having been in existence for at least 20,000 - 25,000 years. In that amount of time, I think you can develop and improve only so far.

As for the "run-down" look of IV - VI, keep in mind that they had been in a state of war for the duration of the Clone Wars, and then after that the Empire was born and open rebellion started. I'm no soldier, but I imagine that in the middle of war you don't always have the luxury of repairing equipment to factory-spec and shining it up nice and pretty.

[ahhsai]

Originally Posted by Admo

.Well a tripod is generally used to support a heavy weapon, simply to give greater accuracy, because it is impossible to hold a heavy weapon like that and aim it properly. Don't forget that Canderous is a Mandalorian as well, not long after their hay-day, so he is built for that kind of thing.

i'm not so sure about his but i'm sure i have heard from some where that stormtroopers are actually clone troopes with new amour after the republic turned into the empire, and since clone troopers are actually from the same gene pool as the mandalorions so they should be able to do the same as canderous if they are using the same gun. and if the tripod is used for better accuracy, wont it be smart to just shoot at the millenium falcon without the tripod considering that it is a very fast ship and is taking off and that assembling the tripod would take time and the millenium falcon could use it to take off.

[Admo]

We had this discussion a little while ago about all of the clones being decended from Jango Fett. While Jango IS a Mandalorian, he is descended from the small remainder of Mandalorians left after the years of war and persecution. And don't forget, Canderous is a particularly strong and excellent warrior and leader. Most of the others turned to petty ambushes and terrorising small, defenseless colonies in the outer rim.

So Jango Fett is something of a shadow of what it is to be a Mandalorian, much weaker and cowardly than those that fought the great Mandalorian Wars 4000 years before his time. And then Boba is obviously the same, being one of the clones.

So while they are tactically and physically superior to droids, they still don't have the strength and valor of their far ancestors.

On the tripod thing, it is better to have it situations of defense like that, because you can assemble it. You can fire it standing up, but you wouldn't be able to bring it up to your shoulder and aim it properly, you would have to fire it from your waist. In a "real-life" situation, which I guess they more or less mirror in Star Wars, heavy weapons are for suppressive fire, not necessarily for killing many people. They aren't especially designed for being accurate, just for the sheer power and scale of fire they can put down - keeping the enemies head down.

I guess they may have advanced a bit from Canderous' time, but I imagine they could fire those heavy repeater standing up, just with an even further lessened degree of accuracy.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Admo

<snip>
On the tripod thing, it is better to have it situations of defense like that, because you can assemble it. You can fire it standing up, but you wouldn't be able to bring it up to your shoulder and aim it properly, you would have to fire it from your waist. In a "real-life" situation, which I guess they more or less mirror in Star Wars, heavy weapons are for suppressive fire, not necessarily for killing many people. They aren't especially designed for being accurate, just for the sheer power and scale of fire they can put down - keeping the enemies head down.
<snip>

To bring a little real life into it (sorry) then machinerifles placed on its tripods are a very accurate killing weapon with a decent gunner, but standing with it - it will hit next to nothing with the same gunner. (Possible some of the newer ones are somewhat different, so standing or prone positions are viable, due to the reducing of recoil techonology - it is all a matter of recoil).


As for the tecnology in the game vs. the old movie vs. the new movies - then I don't think to much thought should be placed into it, because of the change of techonolgy of the makings. It will be this way with all things that made in some reverse chronology.
I doubt very much that when G.Lucas made SW:IV back in the old days that he could even imagine what would be done with the technology in the real world.

And if some plausible "in-universe" reason needs to be found - I think it is very much up to the individual which sounds most plausible.

[masteralef]

Originally Posted by ahhsai

i'm not so sure about his but i'm sure i have heard from some where that stormtroopers are actually clone troopes with new amour after the republic turned into the empire, and since clone troopers are actually from the same gene pool as the mandalorions so they should be able to do the same as canderous if they are using the same gun. and if the tripod is used for better accuracy, wont it be smart to just shoot at the millenium falcon without the tripod considering that it is a very fast ship and is taking off and that assembling the tripod would take time and the millenium falcon could use it to take off.

This is dealt with somewhat in the books as well. The early Stormtroopers are the leftover clone troopers- the ones who survive. However, growing clones too quickly led to insanity, and even the slower grown ones tended to degenerate after a while (Force issues; Ysalmiri, which block the force, are the only way around it). Therefore, by the time of Episodes 4-6, pretty much all Stormtroopers would be recruits/conscripts. As for tripod vs. no tripod- keep in mind that even a ship like a TIE Fighter, which is shieldless and badly armored, can stand up to micrometeorites in space- which hit at the force of a grenade. The SW universe tends to treat starfighters as pretty much immune to anything less than an Eweb (tripod mounted blaster), and the Ewebs are heavy enough that a non-Mandalorian might not be able to hold them.

Finally, the ATATs brought up earlier- they use 2 Medium Blaster Cannons on the sides of the chin and 2 Heavy Laser Cannons on the chin (for reference, Laser Cannon>Blaster Cannon>Blaster Rifle>Blaster Pistol). They essentially have ship-mounted guns on them, which is why they can shoot down the T-47s in Empire. Their armor protects them against most things, including whatever the T-47s have on them- presumably some sort of blaster cannon, or perhaps ever laser cannon.

[maverick8088]

I cant remember which NPC it was but I know he was a Rodian, was in favor of the Sith conquering in KOTOR 1. The reasons he stated were that the Republic had been around for 15,000 years and was stagnant. We all know that war leads to new technologies and that the Republic had just gotten done fighting the Mandalorian Wars and so the Technology in the game would have been derived from that stimulus. I.E. it would have been brand spanking new. However, by the time Episode 4 rolled around, technology would have just been getting a boost from the Clone Wars/GCW, after another long stagnant period also. So I don't think that this is the solution to our little conundrum here.

I think the key is in the way the respective governments dealt with there citizens. While the Old Republic was a looser, democratic, personal freedoms oriented gov't, the Empire was a totalitarian regime in which the individual is repressed for the good of the State. This would have a profound effect on planet economies and result in things looking worn and in disrepair. This is the pool the Rebellion would have to get its resources from in the beginning.

As to personal shields, Aegis had an excellent point:

personal shields and such do exist, but they are expensive. More than the common person would have, and too much to outfit an entire army with.

Remeber, Kyle Katarn has a personal shielding system in all of the Dark Forces games. But if the Empire doesn't even shield it's starfighters, are they going to pony up for Stormtroopers?

Incedentally, Han Solo's Blastech DL-44 had been at his side since he was thrown out of the Imperial Acadamy on Carida for rescuing Chewbacca(about 20 years before Ep.4). So it has seen some heavy duty. Only seems natural for it to be a little worn. And while we are speaking of weapons, Canderous' blaster is a heavy repeater, and could not be classified with the E-WEB seen at Hoth. Big C's gun is akin to an AK-47. It fires a 3 shot burst each time you pull the trigger, and is not very accurate. The E-WEB is more akin to the M-60 heavy machine gun. It is intended to fire non stop from the moiment you touch the trigger to the moment you let off, laying down withering fire and mowing down anything in its path. So comparing the two is something akin to apples and oranges.

One last point with regard to Tripod. Quit making fun of my dog, he lost the leg in a car accident.

[Admo]

I would say a blaster rifle is more akin to an AK-47 than Canderous' weapon. Perhaps you could describe his as a SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) or a light machine gun, which are big guns but not quite as powerful as an M60 and without the same rate of fire.

[Darth-Kibbles]

You know I thought about this too a little bit while playing and I have my own little theories:

First of all, I suspect the reason why the tech looks so run down in Ep 4-6 has to do with the fall of the jedis. At first thought it kind of seems like "Jedis", what are you on crack..Darth Kibbles??

But think about it, we know that the force can even grant a superior knowledge of technology which explains why little Anakin was so good at building and fixing technologiy. We know that a Jedi must constuct a lightsaber as part of their trials. So when the Jedi almost got eradicated all of this creativity disappeared and the Empire/Rebellion probably didn't have any idea how to fix anything.

Secondly, one key reason for the use of "personal shields" had to do with mellee. With no jedis around, there wasn't much call for melee shields. Further more there wouldn't be anyone around to train someone on how to use vibroswords.

So I believe the high point in technology coincides to a time where there were more Jedi.