KOTOR vs. KOTOR 2 (SPOILERS)

[shaedar]

For those who have tried both, do you prefer the original or the sequel?

What would you say are the best improvements made in the 2nd one?
What did they change that makes you miss the first one?

[kams]

The first one is a LOT better!
The second has incomplete storyline and the worst map design I ever saw.

[stormcloud]

The first one is better.

Tons more NPC interaction (Carth, Candy, etc)
Complete storylines and area.
Better mini stories (ie Sith Academy teacher, etc)

And, the Sith War and the Sith are portrayed exactly the way they should be... as a powerful invading army.

[qt 3.14159]

While I have to agree that the first one has a complete story line, there is just something about 2 that draws me in much more than 1. Maybe it's the influence system. Maybe it's that the quests seem to be much less linear, much more interesting. All the characters seem more interesting to me. Somehow, the overall story, while incomplete, is just so much more involving.

I will admit that getting to the end and being completely bumfuzzled by the ending does suck, but at the same time, I just can't wait to shell out more money for an expansion pack or kotor III when I get the chance.

I played through 1 lightside then went straight to 2 and have played through it lightside 4 times (though I don't finish the game, just try to get influence with different party members to make things happen). I am now trying to play through 1 again dark side, but just have a harder time getting involved in the game.

I really liked most of the menus (xbox) on 2 much better (especially the save/load game screen organization).

I loved starting out as a Jedi.

I loved being able to turn my party members into Jedi.

When you get to the end of 2 you are so incredibly powerful it is really a blast. Of course, some people think that it's boring to be able to wipe out a room with 2 force storms, but I really enjoy it.

I liked having a choice about who to have a romance with (even if Disciple is sucky choice).

I liked the complexity of the force in 2 (spoiler: kreia's lesson on light side actions having negative consequences).

The characters in 2 seem much less one dimensional. Even Mandalore is more interesting than Canderous.

There were some things about 2 that bugged me though. I hate that you can't avoid picking up any party members. The romances didn't seem to really go anywhere at all (I'm not entirely sure they *are* romances for the female PC) unlike in 1 where there was a definite outcome.

In general though, I will be much more likely to play 2 over and over again.

[Darth Zenemij]

But Canderous is Mandalore!! It won't let me attach the proof that I found, But Here is a pic.

[qt 3.14159]

Originally Posted by Darth Zenemij

But Canderous is Mandalore!! It won't let me attach the proof that I found, But Here is a pic.

Exactly my point... They are the same character, but somehow, with his trying to rally the Mandalorians, plus his former attachment to Revan he is just *much* more interesting in 2... to me anyhow.

[Faust]

I'm partial to the first game, as well.

Both games follow compelling storylines. The second game has more small twists as it progresses, but the monumental twist of the first game was much more exciting than all the smaller twists in KoTOR2.

Likewise, the rushed nature of KoTOR2, as well as the use of recycled areas, kept the game from ever feeling as if it had the type of rich worlds that KoTOR did. The worlds were less bland, more interesting, and far more detailed in the first game. Taris was much more interesting than Telos. Likewise, the old Korriban and Dantooine were far more involved and fun than KoTOR2's version. Probably the element of discovery and newness added something to this, but the older versions were more involved and carefully rendered, as well. The same could be said of the other KoTOR2 planets, most didn't possess the same polished feel the ones in the first game did.

The NPCs in KoTOR were better, as well. Bastilla was far more interesting and developed as a character than Handmaiden and Visas put together. Likewise, other NPCs such as Carth, Mission, and Jollee were really well thought out and remained interesting as the game progresses. With the exception of Kreia, who was a brilliant NPC, and, perhaps, Atton most of the NPCs in KoTOR2 don't have much to say and seem very incomplete. This isn't to say there weren't interesting NPCs in the second game. Bao-Dur, Handmaiden, Visas, Mandalore, Mira, and others had the potential to be quite fascinating (particularly in lieu of the influence system), I just didn't feel they were were ever developed as fully as the characters in the first game.

The debate over which version of Canderous was more interesting is a good example of this. I think that Mandalore had the potential to be brilliantly fascinating in the second game. Following the characters battle to reform the Mandalorians and his odd relationship with Reven, is certainly very interesting. However, again, I didn't feel either of these themes were really utilized to their full potential. You knew these things were going on in the background, the themes simply weren't explore in enough depth.

With that said, KoTOR2 did do a much better job with droids than KoTOR did. Characters like T-3, GO-TO, the Remote, and HK-47 were much better dealt with than in the first game.

KoTOR felt like a very complete game. KoTOR2 on the other hand screamed of loose ends at every corner. It's one of the few games I've ever played where there extremely important plots that were set into motion but never resolved. The ending was particularly lackluster. It's difficult to say how I would feel about the two games comparison if the developers had been able to take their time with KoTOR2.

Finally, KoTOR2 was simply too easy. The first game was child's play as well, but at least had a handful of difficult moments early in the game. KoTOR2 was a cakewalk and the scope of power you're capable of at the end of the game was simply too great in relation to your opponents.

This isn't to say I didn't care for the second game. I enjoyed parts of it very much. The more "grayish" area that the character walks in is quite intriguing. Likewise, NPCs like Kreia added complexity to our normally black and white understand of the Force. It was a decent game that could have been a very good game if more time had been spent on it.

[Darth Zenemij]

Now here is a more recognizable pic.

[stormcloud]

And who didnt like the little interactions in KOTOR1...

When mission asks Bastilla does she ever use her force power for fun... then says she's a snob, and Bastilla pushes her down...

or how HK calls everyone a meatbag.

[fable]

Originally Posted by stormcloud

And who didnt like the little interactions in KOTOR1....

I didn't, particularly. The writing was okay, but it seemed a clear step back from BG2 (just as the game itself seemed to be aimed in general at a much younger audience, unused to conversational nuances). It was precisely the character development and interactions in KotoR2 that were the highlights of the game--a game that was never quite finished, thanks to LucasArts.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by stormcloud

And who didnt like the little interactions in KOTOR1...

When mission asks Bastilla does she ever use her force power for fun... then says she's a snob, and Bastilla pushes her down...

or how HK calls everyone a meatbag.

I enjoyed the interactions, but felt they were a bit rough in KoTOR (as Fable said, they did pale in comparison to the BG2 interactions). There really are only a handful of them and they are all little humerous scenes with little to no depth. I was really hoping that they would take the interactions to the next level in KoTOR2. As it worked out, they elemenated the random party character to character interaction altogether. In lieu of that, KoTOR2 used pre-boarding Ebon Hawk cutscenes (Jade Empire is using something similar, actually). Those were generally good (though, still, hopelessly unfinished in places), but I still would have liked to see more meaty versions of the interactions like we saw in a BG2.

[stormcloud]

Which bg2 conversations? (its been a long time)
u mean jaheira-to-aerie and all that?

imo, kotor2 seemed lacking in conversations... and the development (ie the Atton love affair) was cut short by LA. boo!

At least everything is tied up in kotor1.

[Heksefatter]

Why I think that Kotor is better than Kotor 2.

1) Kotor is a much more finished product. The endings and the planet maps spring to mind.

2) Kotor is an epic, wheras Kotor 2 is a depression. Everything is deeply rotten in Kotor 2: Your companions (seriously Atton is a former torturer, Mira is willing to hunt decent people for money, even if she doesn't kill - that's EVIL in my book), the Jedi Master's are utterly incompetent to such a degree that it spoils suspension of disbelief - they believe that Revan will defeat them and yet they throw out one of Revan's top generals, when s/he returns to them, thus losing much inside knowledge and battle experience!!! I have tried to describe the situation for friends who were unfamilar with the plots and then asked them: "what is the stupidest thing you can imagine the Jedi Council doing in the situation." It always turn out that their most intentionally stupid idea was less foolish than that of the Jedi Council!!!

3) Inconsistensies. Kotor 2 is full of them. For example: In Kotor 1 we learn about how Carth held his wife as she was dying, while the colony burned. But in Kotor 2 the entire surface of the planet is utterly uninhabitable outside the restoration zones. In that case, Carth couldn't have held his wife, but merely sifted through an irradiated bunch os ash. Also, in Kotor everyone, from shopkeepers on Tatooine to legal officials on Manaan distinguish clearly between Sith and Republic. But just five years later, the war is called THE JEDI CIVIL WAR. Yeah right.

4) No romances. Due to rushing, the romances were incomplete in Kotor 2.

5) The influence system. I meet a Dark Jedi, slave to the foulest of Sith Lords, and I am nice to her. Because of my niceness my influence grows, and she immediately converts to TOTAL LIGHTSIDE! That's not influence, but DOMINATION. I can imagine how one would exploit the flaws in Carth's caracter and eventually corrupt him, yes. But a total change of character takes more than five minutes of conversation, even to a 'natural leader' like the exile. But it doesn't really matter anyway, as I turn both Atton and Mira into 100 % lightsiders, and hence they should act such that Carth and Mission would be like murderous cynics in comparison, but in fact there is no difference. Atton still talks of shooting people in the back and grumbles when I am nice to people.

6) On the other hand, I liked the way that skills and stats played a role in conversations in Kotor 2. Good idea. Also, I liked the-creation-of-items-part.

Verdict: Kotor defeats Kotor 2. Easily. Very easily...

[fable]

Originally Posted by stormcloud

Which bg2 conversations? (its been a long time)
u mean jaheira-to-aerie and all that?

Exactly.

imo, kotor2 seemed lacking in conversations... and the development (ie the Atton love affair) was cut short by LA. boo!

There are many, many conversations between various party NPCs and the player character. Some of them are fully the equal of the finest things I've seen in any game.

[qt 3.14159]

3) Inconsistensies. Kotor 2 is full of them. For example: In Kotor 1 we learn about how Carth held his wife as she was dying, while the colony burned. But in Kotor 2 the entire surface of the planet is utterly uninhabitable outside the restoration zones. In that case, Carth couldn't have held his wife, but merely sifted through an irradiated bunch os ash. Also, in Kotor everyone, from shopkeepers on Tatooine to legal officials on Manaan distinguish clearly between Sith and Republic. But just five years later, the war is called THE JEDI CIVIL WAR. Yeah right.

I assumed that Telos was made "utterly uninhabitable" by the fallout after the attack not that it was suddenly and completely obliterated by the attack.

It doesn't seem unlikely to me that most people would equate Revan & Malak with Jedi since Sith are fallen Jedi and they were both Jedi War Heros. Furthermore, the deliniation between Sith / Republic is made before the Jedi Coucil is hunted down and destroyed. I think it would be very easy for the people left in the wake of that war to think that it was the Jedi/Sith's manipulation that brought that war about. Therefore it would make sense for the Republic to rename it "The Jedi Civil War" to try to distance themselves from it as far as possible politically.


I do agree with most of your other complaints, however, I guess I'm just hopeful that we'll get the rest of the story somehow.