Why do they still call us "Nazis" ? (No Spam please.)

[Beldin]

Attention - long post!

Let's go:

Partly inspired by Aegis "Propaganda" thread, but mostly by the current political situation in Austria (Information here and here. ) and the upflare of U.S. patriotism after the 9/11 attacks I had some (quite heated) discussions with my friends and associates (here in "RL") - and now I want to hear how you (my SYMbionts) perceive this - after all SYM is the most "international" congregation I know.

Apart from apparently being a "pariah state " within the European Union (EU) for having an alleged "far right" government (which is perceived by us citizens as a "populistic" government - that is much talk about how different they are from the socialists, but not much action in that direction.. ) and apart from being under close scrutiny from the middle east (mostly Israel ) we (my friends and I) all grew up as "post war generations" with the shadows of the past still upon us.

57 years after WWII we're still paying for the Holocaust. (Yes, the Holocaust did also take place in Austria. We were part of the "3.Reich" then, but we were involved to the same extend as "the germans" were.)

But all that isn't "to the point". It's just here to give you the background on what my real problem is.

We're paying up to this very day with the loss of anything remotely nationalistic or patriotic.
Any time a citizen of Germany or Austria dares to use the words "Nation", "Patriot" and "Foreigner" in one sentence, all hell breaks loose.
It starts at the top, with politicians and the opposition (closely followed by the media) - calling "He's a new HITLER" at the drop of a hat and it "ends" down on a very personal level where friends call each other a "nazi" for voicing patriotic opinions about their country.

Personally I'm not a very politically (or patriotic) minded person. (That's why I stay out of most political discussions in this Forum.) Therefore I can live with that to a certain extent.

Since Austria has taken on more minorities, refugees and immigrants "per capita" than any other european country over the last few years (Remember - we're barely 8 million "native" people here .) and we still have no violence (shootings, burnings and the like...) against immigrants like they did other countries - and we don't have any organisation even remotely resembling the Ku Klux Klan, we feel we can't be that bad - no matter what "the world" says.

BUT - (and it's a big BUT) - I somehow miss the freedom of speaking my mind.

If I think a person is an @sshole - I'll tell them so. Explicitly. Several times if necessary - disregarding this persons race, colour or religion.
Now as long as the person concerned is a "fellow" caucasian catholic with german as native language that won't be a problem.
I can cuss and swear at them as much as I like.You could even say it's a socially accepted pastime.
If the person in question happens to be of a different ethnic heritage - or religion - a subtle change in perception takes place for everyone present, and after all the common sense get's thrown out - suddenly - I am the bad guy. And nobody cares anymore if the other one deals with dangerous drugs (and no, I don't think Marijuana is a dangerous drug, thank you very much ), or was just in the process of stealing a motorcycle. (-that one happened to a friend of mine.)
He just happens to be a poor refugee of war from [enter any convenient country here] and suddenly he's mister nice guy.

And that's the point I'm trying to get across in all of my longwindedness.
I NEVER ever discriminated anyone just because he/she/it was/is a "foreigner" - I only divide peolpe into 2 categories - "Them that are ok, and them that are ***holes." -and that's all that counts in my opinion, but I feel restricted in my freedom of speech by being called a "nazi" - just because I happen to live in a region where some guys did some extremely bad things - 30 years before I was even "in the planning stage" by my parents.


End of rant. Thank's for bearing with me. I hope I'm making sense. I just had to get it out of my system now. . .


No worries, I won't go into politics.

Beldinhttp://www.plauder-smilies.de/person/hippy.gif


PS: I know that this might not be considered interesting for some of our members , but maybe some people in my general vincinity have had similar experiences.

[Eerhardt]

Like Beldin, I'm not much into politics either so I'm far from the best person to comment. Nevertheless, I'll just give my own opinion on the matter.

In general, I think the term Nazi is used too light-heartedly for anyone with right-wing beliefs. While I don't approve of extreme right ideas (and with a right-wing party called "Vlaams Blok", we have our share of them in Belgium too ), I find it disturbing, to say the least, how easily people use the term "Nazi" as though it were no more than an insult.

In order to avoid a l'histoire se répète, the EU was quick to condemn the Austrian election and to "brand" Austria as a country of would-be nazi's. And that, I think, is the root of the problem. While it's important to remember the past, it is equally important that we look toward the future and see the people for what they are today and not linger on reminiscensces of the past, as far as events that took place over half a century ago are concerned.

I too prefer to judge someone by character, rather than nationality

[Weasel]

Maybe HLD or Fable can explain it...but how is political groupings divided up in Europe..

In the US (IMHO)..it is something like this,

Extreme Left = Communist (Government runs all)

Far Left = Socialist/Green (Government programs/equal benefits)

Left = Democrat (Government programs/min. benefits)

Right = Republican (Decrease in Government programs and benefits)

Far Right = Nationalist (I have no idea of the government stucture (I believe it heads back to more government control), but the idea behind it is.."unifying ideal or belief to bring together to form a nation")

Extreme Far Right = Facist (Same as Nationalist, but taken to the very extreme...Hitler would IMHO fall under this one)

Basing my opinion on these, (as I said I have no idea how Europe would classed) I would put the 'Nazi' in the Extreme Far Right, right along with the KKK, Pat Buchanan and David Duke. As Eerhardt said..."In general, I think the term Nazi is used too light-heartedly for anyone with right-wing beliefs." and I agree.

[HighLordDave]

When used in political circles or discussions, the term "nazi" is a carefully-crafted tool of character assassination. When you invoke the word "nazi" or "Hitler", it carries with it all sorts of pejorative connotations which you dump on the target of your ire through nothing more that guilt by association. Over here, similar "bad words" are "liberal" or "racist".

I think on one level, politicians calling each other "nazis" trivialises the actual victims of Nazi war crimes because it compares apples and oranges; I don't think even the most anti-immigration candidate today wants to lock up Turkish labourers in camps and exterminate them. It also unfairly stacks the deck against people who may simply want to watch out for a country's best interests. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong or dangerous about nationalism; we've had a couple of discussions about this before and there's nothing wrong about feeling good about your country or being proud of the good things your country does.

The problem for the Germans is that they elected Hitler on a nationalist platform, and the problem for the Austrians is that they welcomed Hitler with open arms and parades. When the war ended, instead of going to harsh route that was taken at the end of the First World War, the Allies rebuilt the former Third Reich but imposed the cultural guilt our friend Beldin talks about (we did it in Japan, too) for being the "cause" of the Second World War and the Holocaust.

I think many people feel that they are unfairly saddled with this burden, and they're probably right. After all, the sins of the fathers are not the sins of the sons. However, as long as there are Holocaust survivors alive, there will be the rallying cries of "Never forget" and "Never again.

[Beldin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Weasel Extreme Left = Communist (Government runs all) Far Left = Socialist/Green (Government programs/equal benefits) Left = Democrat (Government programs/min. benefits) Right = Republican (Decrease in Government programs and benefits) Far Right = Nationalist (I have no idea of the government stucture (I believe it heads back to more government control), but the idea behind it is.."unifying ideal or belief to bring together to form a nation") Extreme Far Right = Facist (Same as Nationalist, but taken to the very extreme...Hitler would IMHO fall under this one)

FYI - as far as I've been able to distinguish the political parties from one another (in my opinion ALL of them talk a load of s*it - especially with elections to come...) it goes like this:


Far Left = Communist (Government runs all)

Left = Socialist/Green (Government programs/equal benefits)

Right = Nationalist (I have no idea of the government stucture (I believe it heads back to more government control), but the idea behind it is.."unifying ideal or belief to bring together to form a nation")

Far Right = Facist (Same as Nationalist, but taken to the very extreme...Hitler would IMHO fall under this one)

At least that's the labeling used by the media so far.

If someone knows different, please feel free to correct me.

No worries,

Beldin

[Scayde]

You all know I am from Texas, down here we are predominately to the right of center, and I fall to the right of that, but my politics are based on

1. fiscal conservatism, and
2. hands off government.

I very rearely enter political discussions because the minute people find out my views I get attacked for being exploitave,fanatic, fundamentalist, selfish, greedy, and even a racist. Of which I am none !!!

It seems to be "unfashionable" to be "Proud to be an American", My Husband is German and a US/Citizen also very proud of his heritage He feels very defensive because of some of the same kind of pressures you have described.

I feel it is good and right to be patriotic and have pride in your home land. It is not right when you have to feel ashamed for loving your country.

[Mr Sleep]

Here is an article by Tom Pabst of Toms Hardware Guide, i found it very interesting, here is a little excerpt from this page:

Since I have pretty much withdrawn from writing lots of articles and started concentrating on running the editorial office and the test lab of Tom's Hardware, my life has become a lot better. I have stopped smoking cigarettes late September 2001 and I have basically become a much happier person. If you are a reader that gets something out of calling me a 'Nazi' just because I am German, then go right ahead, because I ain't gonna get upset. I'm not even reading your filth, buddy!

[Tom]

As I have stated before I think that to be proud of you country is irrational. Normally it is not dangerous, although I believe it leaves you more open to government propaganda, but I think that extreme pride in ones country is bad as well as irrational.

Leaving that aside I think that trying to smear Germans, Austrians or Italians with the nazi brush is wrong. That said it was a shock to me and many other Europeans when Jorg Haider did so well in the Austrian elections. There is a rise in the far left going on in Europe - in my own country, Denmark, a far right party is part of a government coalition. In Italy we have Berlusconi and in France Jean-Marie Le Pen.

All this makes me very sad and I think we have to protest and say this is not acceptable. So I was happy when the European union protested to Austria because Haider might be in government. I wish that there had been more criticism of Italy when Berlusconi was made president.

The political scene in much of mainland Europe is a reprehensible one in my opinion. I have lived in France and love the country so I get extremely angry when a known criminal is made president and a bloody fascist gets a large chunk of votes.

It makes me very sad to think about all this. Hopefully things will change for the better. I am almost certain that the government in Denmark will change at the next election, as for France and Italy they are stuck with their bastards for awhile I think.

[Bloodmist]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom It makes me very sad to think about all this. Hopefully things will change for the better. I am almost certain that the government in Denmark will change at the next election.

I certanly hope so.

[Obsidian]

I think the term Fascist is worse then the term Nazi.

Nazi is derived from the National Socalist party. (Contradiction I know) but it did indeed bring forth some important changes like taking care of the elderly. If any one knows the National Socialist parties 25 points, please post them, because I don't. National Socialism was turned, by Hitler, into an extremely powerful and rascist organization, starting with his SA, followed by the SS, to core of psychos who believed wholely that anyone not aryian should not be allowed to pass along their genetics.
Nazism has only negative connatations now, but at it's time ( before Hitler warped it) was quite progressive and reasonable. I think it's sad that such a productive political philosiphy has become shadowed by the twistings of a madman.

[HighLordDave]

Quote:

Originally posted by Obsidian I think the term Fascist is worse then the term Nazi.

Fascism also has a lot of negative connotations which were not there when Mussolini started the Fascist party in Italy in the early 1920s. The name Fascists was not originally associated with a form of government but rather the fasces, a bundle of rods that symbolised the power over life and death the magistrates held in the old Roman Empire. When he rose to power in the early 1920s, Mussolini drew heavily upon Roman symbolism and the name of the Fascist Party was part of this.

[BaronTx]

In my opinion, nationalism is a natural reaction by citizens who feel threatened by external forces. Any country that is attacked, either militarily or economically, will experience an upsurge in nationalism. It is human nature to band together and support your nation, tribe or family.
Some people can see cause and effect without letting any feelings of affiliation skew their perspective. Most of us can't. But the world would probably be a better place if we could. Maybe after my generation and the next are dead and gone this will become a general trait for most humans.

Regarding the free use of the term nazi:
The moment some people find out my heritage, I am branded a nazi. For no other reason than my origin of birth, my blond hair and blue eyes. And when they find out my political views are conservative it's on to the term aryan. I am hardly the poster boy for a mythical master race. There are many forms of prejudice, some are blatant and others are much more subtle.

Anyway, I thought I would share my thoughts and experiences with Beldin and let him know that its not only the germanic peoples in Europe that are being singled out for something that happened before they were born.

[Lintelyg]

People just call other ppl nazi because they don't really know what it means, IMHO. They associate Nazi with racists and it becomes a sort of stereotype. So they use the term very loosely. But one must never forget that nazis still exist in small groups in europe and in america. I've got first hand expirience with it. Those dogs jumped me and beat the hell out of me just because i have a mohawk. They should be eradicated or educated. I myself am a VERY left wing person. A sort of Anarcho-communist you might say, and stand against such people. But thats just my opinion.

[Gruntboy]

I understand where you're coming from Beldin. Nazism has branded the German and Austrian people (and others) with an unbearable stigma.

When asked about joining Europe in the 80's, Margaret Thatcher asked of the Germans "Have they changed?"

I agree very much with what HighLordDave said. I am not going to get into an discussion of the culpability of the German people in supporting Hitler. I would like to think that people change (and qucikly too!) and that war and several decades is enough space to forget the people but not the events.

It is Fascism which is evil, and hatred of those that are different, not a certain people. Just look at simpletons who brand Germans at Nazis - a point in case! No more than bigotted fascists themselves.

[Sojourner]

Quote:

Originally posted by BaronTx In my opinion, nationalism is a natural reaction by citizens who feel threatened by external forces. Any country that is attacked, either militarily or economically, will experience an upsurge in nationalism. It is human nature to band together and support your nation, tribe or family. Some people can see cause and effect without letting any feelings of affiliation skew their perspective. Most of us can't. But the world would probably be a better place if we could. Maybe after my generation and the next are dead and gone this will become a general trait for most humans. Regarding the free use of the term nazi: The moment some people find out my heritage, I am branded a nazi. For no other reason than my origin of birth, my blond hair and blue eyes. And when they find out my political views are conservative it's on to the term aryan. I am hardly the poster boy for a mythical master race. There are many forms of prejudice, some are blatant and others are much more subtle. Anyway, I thought I would share my thoughts and experiences with Beldin and let him know that its not only the germanic peoples in Europe that are being singled out for something that happened before they were born.

I second that. There are communities in America that just can't let WWII die (thankfully, not many).