What is it with religious crusaders? (no spam)

[fable]

There are plenty of perfectly good, sane folk who belong to a range of religions, and espouse a range of beliefs. This thread isn't about them, however. It's about the others who seek media attention and power to force a "moral" agenda down the throats of everybody else. This isn't new; English pilgrims and Dutch Calvinists were repeatedly punlished by their governments at one time for physically attacking women who wore jewelry, men who drank or smoked, and anybody who dared to question that their vision of their holy book was the proper law of the land.

So at least today's bunch has some background. They also apparently have endless kinks, which I find fascinating in a "oh, isn't that plate-sized hairy black spider exuding green pus?" kind of way. While many nations have their own moral crusaders, right now in the US we seem to be going through revelations regarding the dirty laundry of quite a few. For example, this occurred a few days ago:

AP Neswire: Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."

Now, his son, Oral Roberts University President Richard Roberts, says God is speaking again, telling him to deny lurid allegations in a lawsuit that threatens to engulf this 44-year-old Bible Belt college in scandal.

Richard Roberts is accused of illegal involvement in a local political campaign and lavish spending at donors' expense, including numerous home remodeling projects, use of the university jet for his daughter's senior trip to the Bahamas, and a red Mercedes convertible and a Lexus SUV for his wife, Lindsay.

...and just yesterday, the following was revealed in a newly released coroner's report about a close advisor of the late, lamented Reverend Jerry Falwell:

An Alabama minister who died in June of “accidental mechanical asphyxia” was found hogtied and wearing two complete wet suits, including a face mask, diving gloves and slippers, rubberized underwear, and a head mask, according to an autopsy report.

Investigators determined that Rev. Gary Aldridge’s death was not caused by foul play and that the 51-year-old pastor of Montgomery’s Thorington Road Baptist Church was alone in his home at the time he died (while apparently in the midst of some autoerotic undertaking). While the Montgomery Advertiser, which first obtained the autopsy records, reported on Aldridge’s two wet suits, the family newspaper chose not to mention what police discovered inside the minister’s rubber briefs.

They also didn't mention in full the entirety of the Right Reverend's objects on his person at the time of his decease: two wet suits, one scuba diving mask, one pair of diving gloves, one pair of slippers, one pair of rubber underwear, two ties, five belts, eleven straps. Personal Effects: One yellow metal ring intact on left ring finger, one di!do.

Scam Roberts and Reverend Rubber Fetish are only a pair of numerous recent examples of far right religious leaders with considerable political power who have been screaming for everybody to adopt the rules they set, while themselves doing the exact opposite in private. Presumably such individuals range from the cynical to the psychologically driven, but why do they feel it necessary to preach the opposite from a pulpit? Do you think they're just seeking a front for their scams? Or running away from their own desires? Or are those of us who are exasperated by the hypocrisy of such figures simply missing the benevolent wisdom they wish to bestow? Keep this thread on target, please.

[Xandax]

I have no or little "fear" or worries about such people, as they are generally harmless - it is the thousand of lemmings who lack all common sense and follow them blindly, that I fear.

There is - in my view - a serious lack of common sense in so many aspect of humanity today, that I can't claim we live in enlightened times, but I feel we still live in the dark ages. And it is the desire to "follow" and be in a "group" which causes this in my book, whether religious or political.
The singular hypocrites who act as the lemmings leaders, well, they're just weirdos. It is the lemmings which put them in a position of power to do harm.

[fable]

But what I'm trying to get at in this thread--probably not too successfully, in terms of expressing myself--is your opinions about why there exists such a disconnect between the religious crusader's strict, publically espoused moral code, and their own private behavior. As a group, are they cynical? Self-repressing? Both? Something else entirely?

[Xandax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable But what I'm trying to get at in this thread--probably not too successfully, in terms of expressing myself--is your opinions about why there exists such a disconnect between the religious crusader's strict, publically espoused moral code, and their own private behavior. As a group, are they cynical? Self-repressing? Both? Something else entirely?

They are humans. I think that's about the most I can say.
It is not a trait just with religious "crusaders"; but it exists in business, politics, sports, entertainment... most aspects of life.

If lemmings didn't follow them, they wouldn't be "religious crusader" figureheads, and then they'd just be Average Joe next door who has double standards and says one thing and does something else.
The fact they are figureheads, does not alter this perception of them for me, they are still just an Average Joe, except some people follow them and some attention is given to them.

The total lack of common sense moves all the way down to the most mundane of tasks, such as people speeding in cars while at the same time blaming the guy who overtakes them for driving reckless, blaming McDonald's for being overweight while eating there, or preaching religious doctrine and not following it yourself. They are just "people" doing what "we" do best.

[Bloodstalker]

My opinion is that these kind of people are just using religion the same way anyone else uses anything to gain power or influence. Religion is just one of the strongest ways to influence people, as well as the easiest to use. There's not much thought or preparation that goes into "God told me I was going to be killed if I can't raise 8 million dollars", but it's very effective if you can maintain the public image of the God fearing evangelist.

I mean just look at a lot of these individuals and their ministries. From the 700 Club to Jimmy Swaggart, the main thrust of their televised shows is money. Send us a 50 dollar love gift and we'll pray for you. Send us a donation so we can afford to put cameras up on a mountain in Jerusalem so that Jesus can finally come back according tpo the prophecy that says "Every eye shall behold him" (That's not made up btw, I saw that request on the 700 Club.) It goes straight down the line, selling prayer cloths, talking little old ladies out of their social security checks by getting on television and having God reveal to them that "A woman in the audience is afflicted with severe arthritis. If you will show your faith in God by sending such and such amount of money, he will heal you." Just imagine how many people hear that and take it as directed at them personally. It's a damn near fool proof way of making money, and since most people don't question a preacher and look for themselves to see what the writings of their own religion say about the subject (Jesus whipping the money changers and driving them from the temple for the exact same actions) it just works. And since money is the main thrust, why should those people exploiting a religion have any care for following the religious principles they lay out for other people in their private lives? While they have to preach the old time, god fearing gospel to convince people they are what they say they are, they IMO don't even believe what they teach. It's just a tool of the power trade. The right religion can make you rich and get you elected.

Why it works? I have no idea. But it's probably the same reason that criminals immediatly find Jesus when they get tossed in jail. Or in the case of Michael Vick, as soon as they get indicted. If people who really believe in their religion hear something like that, they are apt to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Now I'm not saying all religion is bad, or all Christians are evil any more than I am saying all Republicans are evil because of the actions of the Bush administration. I'm just saying that most people blindly follow what their leaders, be it religious or political, tell them to do. People send money to televangelists for the same reasons they vote Republican of Democrat. It's just almost automatic. I've even heard people send in money to these religious people because they say that their own heart is in the right place, and it's out of their hands what the televangelists do with the money once they get it. They don't bother to hold them responsible for how they use the money because God will hold them responsible in the end.

Just my two cents.

[VonDondu]

I think they are deceitful and arrogant. By deceitful, I mean they think they can lie their way through anything. As long as they think they're fooling everyone, they're happy with themselves. By arrogant, I mean they think the rules don't apply to them. Since they are "good people" in their own minds, nothing they do is ever wrong. They think they can cheat their way through life. I guess they think they can even cheat their way into Heaven. Reality does not intrude upon their faith in themselves. As long as they put up a good front, they think they can pass as good Christians. Actually, they think they ARE good Christians no matter what. --Except when they get caught doing something wicked, that is. Then their world comes tumbling down. They throw themselves on God's mercy and ask Him to protect them from the people who judge them and "persecute" them and try to "destroy" them. If they receive forgiveness, it reinforces their belief that they are deserving of it because they're "good people". Like I said, they are arrogant and deceitful.

I'm not trying to criticize smokers, but I once knew a smoker who was totally deluded in a similar way. He died of emphysema because he destroyed his own lungs. On the one hand, he knew that his lungs were close to failure, and he was scared to death. He couldn't bear the thought of dying. On the other hand, he thought that he could get away with smoking without suffering any consequences. It couldn't happen to HIM--he was too good for that. He didn't think that cigarettes could hurt him, so he never stopped smoking. In spite of his failing health, he pretended that everything was okay. As long as he could do that, he didn't have to face reality. In his own crazy way, he thought that he could cheat death. When death caught up with him, he felt like he didn't deserve it because he didn't think he had done anything wrong. He was in denial until the very end. It's like he existed outside the laws of nature. He BELIEVED that he was going to live forever, and that made everything okay.

In other words, if someone who is doing something he shouldn't be doing can put up a good front, he can overcome reality just by BELIEVING his own lies or his own fantasy. They have a childish, selfish attitude that puts their own desires and their own will above everything else. They think they can bend reality to their own will. They don't want to suffer any consequences for their actions, and they believe they can get away with anything. If all else fails, God will save them because they "deserve" it, which is another way of avoiding consequences. Therefore, they don't have to answer to the laws of God or laws or men or laws of nature. They're too good for that.

[Claudius]

I read in a book about something called 'reaction formation' we have something in our own mind that we feel ashamed of.

Example we are gay.

Reaction formation is a defense mechanism. By being the most anti-gay person on the planet publicly we defend ourselves from the shame of being gay.

[dragon wench]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS My opinion is that these kind of people are just using religion the same way anyone else uses anything to gain power or influence. Religion is just one of the strongest ways to influence people, as well as the easiest to use. There's not much thought or preparation that goes into "God told me I was going to be killed if I can't raise 8 million dollars", but it's very effective if you can maintain the public image of the God fearing evangelist.

I concur and was about to write something similar.
In my view, if these people were not hypocritical hucksters selling "religion" they'd be engaged in some equally dubious activity that accorded them both power and wealth. And, what I think is really critical here is that one of the primary weapons in their arsenal is fear. They prey on the vulnerable, and they persuade unfortunate people like this that they can help them, and even more to the point, they convince these individuals that a horrible fate of fire and brimstone awaits if they do not fork over their life savings to whatever church it happens to be. Hence, they use fear to gain control over the lonely and the weak... To me, this speaks of sadism; thus, it is no wonder so many also have kinks.

I'm not saying that sexually kinky behaviour is necessarily sadistic or anything, but just that in the case of people like this there may well be a connection.

Personally, I hesitate to use absolute definitions like "Good" or "Evil."
But, in my mind... individuals like this personify "Evil." I view them in a similar light as I do Nazis.. Interestingly, they too, apparently engaged in sadistic sexual kinks..

[Dottie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable Or are those of us who are exasperated by the hypocrisy of such figures simply missing the benevolent wisdom they wish to bestow?

If I'm allowed to exaggerate somewhat I would say I'm inclined to agree with this. No one likes a hypocrite, but assuming that the views of these people where actually true it might still be a good thing to try to save a few souls by preaching, regardless of your own inability to live up to your ideals. I wouldn't think horribly of a drug addict who toured schools speaking of the dangers of drugs, and I believe this has a similar component.

Arrogance and hypocrisy might be quite unlikable, but the actual views of these people are much worse than their personal shortcomings imo.

Obviously there are great personal variety in cases like these, and I'm sure some preachers probably just play the gallery, but my (completely unscientific) belief is that they are the minority

[Moonbiter]

This hasn't got anything to do with "religion," does it? We, homo subperior seem to have a need to hang our coat on some barbed wire. One of my personal pet peeves is PETA, whose followers do senseless and mindless terrorist attacks with the blessing of the PC media on the very nature and animals they're supposedly sworn to protect. They make radical Islamists look like the Hardy Boys, yet they still get the support from the mainstream, uninformed masses. They lie, and are exposed for lying, via the media, and nobody gives a damn. Fanatical religious demagogues has nothing on these people. When they get mister James Bond (Pierce Brosnan) to say in public that "Norway has a tradition of persecuting and publicly lynching anti-whaling protestors," the madness is made public, yet strangely acceptable.

We all ride our little horses, the tragic thing is that it's much more fun to ride them together in a group, with someone else at the reins so we don't have to do the job ourselves.

[BlueSky]

There are fanatics in all religions...just as there are fanatics in politics and other causes, even sports fanatics...usually the more outspoken ones are the ones that get the attention, which is probably just want they are striving for...the attention not the cause.

As for the subject of public face versus private face, I find that I enjoy reading about (for example an anti-gay public official being caught in a contradiction in their own life).....guess that's the cynic in me...

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSky There are fanatics in all religions...just as there are fanatics in politics and other causes, even sports fanatics...usually the more outspoken ones are the ones that get the attention, which is probably just want they are striving for...the attention not the cause.

But there is a peculiar cachet to those that claim both to know the moral absolutes of all actions, and the responsibility to enforce these on others, while acting privately in a way that completely, repeatedly contradicts whatever they say. Are they all fanatics, do you think? If so, are you saying they don't see their own self-contradictions? And what about Roberts? Like his dad, another successful swindler, he denies a luxurious lifestyle made on the money sent in to pursue his message. He doesn't sound like a fanatic, does he?

[dragon wench]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fable But there is a peculiar cachet to those that claim both to know the moral absolutes of all actions, and the responsibility to enforce these on others, while acting privately in a way that completely, repeatedly contradicts whatever they say.

I think this is true.

Also, while it is certainly the case that PETA, to use Moonbiter's example of sundry fanatics, is an absolute master of media manipulation, I think they differ from the religious zealots in two important ways.
First, the religious right in the US is a powerful political lobby group, one with significant sway. I don't think quite the same can be said for sports fanatics (as opposed to actual teams), animal rights fanatics etc. At least, not to the same degree.
Secondly, the religious crusaders don't just pull expertly orchestrated media stunts (à la PETA), they have regularly scheduled television programs.
Combine this with the fact that they have plenty of money behind them
.. and they become *a lot* more frightening.

Sure, you have all kinds of fanatics of various stripes, but I tend to agree with Fable here... There is something especially galling (and chilling) about a group of people who claim high moral ground, and would love nothing better than to establish absolute social control...while simultaneously acting in a way that completely contradicts every precept they've ever advocated.

[BlueSky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable But there is a peculiar cachet to those that claim both to know the moral absolutes of all actions, and the responsibility to enforce these on others, while acting privately in a way that completely, repeatedly contradicts whatever they say. Are they all fanatics, do you think? If so, are you saying they don't see their own self-contradictions? And what about Roberts? Like his dad, another successful swindler, he denies a luxurious lifestyle made on the money sent in to pursue his message. He doesn't sound like a fanatic, does he?

I agree Fable.....living in the Bible belt is scary enough, having my car vandalized just because I had a Darwin sticker and a bumper sticker that said, "I'm doing my part to p*** off the religious right" apparently gave enough reason to some fanatics to destroy my personal property.
And now with the so-called Creation Museum in the state it makes me ashamed to let people know where I live....