To Spank or Not to spank?

[QuenGalad]

Is it really "a reinforcement of showing that what you done was wrong"? Or is it a show of domination from the parent, the "i'm stronger so you must obey" message? It was the latter in my father's case. He liked it, even now he does that to his dog, since there are no children to beat. But one lunatic shouldn't be our example.

The problem is, when hitting your child gets the job done, you're satisfied with that. You stop thinking about better ways. Also, you never know if the child understands why it is being hit, or is just scared of more. And you teach it that violence can be excused, if the one using it "is right". And that's a terrible thing to teach.

[GawainBS]

I would strees the importance of using it as a last resort. Simply using it as a disciplinary action all the time doesn't teach your child anything, except maybe fear for you. And many parents seem to make the mistake of fear = respect.
I only got one spank ever, and that was, as I was told years later, because I wouldn't stop putting my fingers in the electric plug /wall thingie. (Not sure about the English word: the place in the wall where you plug in electric stuff to make it work?)
But I also grew up knowing right from wrong and being respectfull of others, so I see no reason to include spanking in the "standardpackage" of raising kids.

[Mace Panda Poo]

Originally Posted by Siberys

the man will keep his mouth shut to the woman about what the child did to deserve punishment...... and the child has that fear instilled in him that if he isn't a good boy, the man might tattle to the woman.

I don't think this is a very good thing todo; doing this makes the child think that the mother is an ogre. Both parents should work together, not drag the child further from the other parent to save a weeks allowance or get a few extra chores done.

[Chanak]

Different children...different stages of development...both call for different disciplinary methods. The method you use in spanking (and your reasoning and practice of it) is critical and decides whether I find it appropriate or not. In my own experience, I found spanking most effective with post-infant to pre-teen children. Older children will invariably resent any attempts at physical punishment, and in the case of infants, it is wasted and in my opinion not very healthy for the child. Also, in my opinion spanking should *never* be done while you are angry or emotionally upset (either at the child, or about anything else). Screaming and yelling...or even worse, calling a child derogatory names...is terrible and shouldn't happen, period. I have witnessed that sort of thing all too often.

A child should never be disciplined in any fashion just to make the parent "feel better." By the same token, I think we shouldn't refrain from disciplining a child because we would feel terrible about it. That's a huge problem with parents, especially here in the U.S. If discipline is used for a child's benefit then it becomes part of our role as parents...providing the children in our charge with food, shelter, love, acceptance, and education and guidance to become the person they want to be when they mature into adulthood.

So in a nutshell...some children might indeed require corporal punishment in order for the undesirability of their actions/behaviors to be successfully communicated to them (that is the reason behind why I would spank a child...and the only one). Other children might not ever need such a thing. I think as adults and parents we should make the effort to understand what each of our children needs and give them the very best that we can.

[Siberys]

Originally Posted by Mace Panda Poo

I don't think this is a very good thing todo; doing this makes the child think that the mother is an ogre. Both parents should work together, not drag the child further from the other parent to save a weeks allowance or get a few extra chores done.

Yes, I know, I was spamming this thread a bit with what I thought was an obviously sarcastic response to what I'd actually do to a child.

[Philos]

When my wife and I were going through training to be foster parents, the issue of spanking was discussed numerous times. At least in my state, Tennessee, foster parents may NOT use corporal punishment in any form. Now Tennessee does not have any restriction on parents using on their own kids but not on foster kids. The reason, and I think it is a good one, is that most kids placed into foster care have been physically abused at some point or another. For some it might trigger flashbacks, for others it will simply be of nil effect (in short that kid thinks, "yeah, go ahead spank me, my old man hit me harder than that").

We came up with some creative ways to punish disobedience. The 13 year old boy we had was quite popular with the girls at school and like to smell good for them. When he acted up one time, we took away his good smelling deodorant and body wash, and gave him plain generic unscented stuff. I think he would have rather we spanked him. Never acted up again.

All this being said, I think there are times when willful defiance and disobedience calls for spanking. It really depends on the kid's temperment and attitude as well as the situation. There are some kids that temperment wise should never be (nor would likely need to be) spanked. But there are some that might need that on occasion.

[Vicsun]

Originally Posted by Siberys

Yes, I know, I was spamming this thread a bit with what I thought was an obviously sarcastic response to what I'd actually do to a child.

Then can you give an actual, non-sarcastic response to

Originally Posted by Dragon Wench

I'd be curious to know what some of those ways are.

[Siberys]

Not really. For one, I gave a sarcastic response because I'm not big on posting argumentative statements that go completely against other people's beliefs (unless of course I'm trying to be sarcastic, in which case I might, depends on how sensitive the subject is).

But for another, I have no real experience with raising or even being near a kid being punished, so I have no real opinion on this matter anyways.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Seriously, I voted pro-spank, but as noted there needs to be more variables included for a representative answer. On the one hand I know there were times when I deserved a good slap on the backside as a kid, and I probably should have got a couple more than I did (though by the same token there were one or two occasions I got one where there would have been more appropriate forms of punishment). I'd sooner try explanation and example over spanking, but that doesn't always work, especially with younger kids who can't necessarily understand the consequences of what they do. It'd be nice to think I'll never hit my own child/ren should I have him/her/them, but that seems a little unrealistic...
The main drawback with spanking my childhood self is that most of the time the lesson I came away with was "don't get caught" as opposed to actually considering why what I had/hadn't done was 'wrong' (usually because it was something that could have caused me serious physical harm), so it was kind of counterproductive in a way.

Short answer: The punishment should fit the crime. Spanking one's kids - only where warranted, and only in moderation - is okay by me.

[Curdis]

I have to say that the whole issue (especially in NZ) is farcical.

What constitutes physical violence?

Restraint certainly does. So all of the; shut up in a room; confined to the naughty chair (etc.) stuff is also physical violence. If you do this stuff to an adult most places they have a legal redress.

Two of the most rabidly anti-spank parents I know routinely inflict the most appallingly violent psychological attacks on their children (lets just call it angry in the face yelling). If that is the alternative I say go the spank. - Curdis.

[Maharlika]

As far as my family is concerned, spanking is done followed immediately with proper processing of the child. Children should never be spanked just because you had a bad day and they annoyed you at that time. Also, never spank out of a whim and use your authority as a valid reason. Lastly, never slap a child. Spanking the bottom or the thigh is the best place.

I grew up getting spanked whenever I deserve one and I never resented those times that my parents hit me.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Maharlika

I grew up getting spanked whenever I deserve one and I never resented those times that my parents hit me.

Same here, and I deserved every one I ever had...
But in raising my child I never spanked even once or raised my voice..
When punishment was called for, we took away privileges away...
TV, telephone use, ...and heaven forbid her gaming systems....
Once after she ran down the hallway to her room and slammed the door in disgust with her parents, she awoke the next morning without a door to her room.

[fable]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

Once after she ran down the hallway to her room and slammed the door in disgust with her parents, she awoke the next morning without a door to her room.

Clever. I think your general approach is a very good one. As far as spanking is concerned, even if some kids "deserve" it, a lot has to be considered in line with temperament, lack of socially developed controls, etc. Even the person who thinks spanking worked for themselves, may find that it makes a given child's behavior worse--or worse still, makes that child feel unloved, or go completely emotionally out of control.

And spanking seems to me such a final step, in a sense, that sense being that it's a physical invasion by the most trusted, yet threatening, large creatures in a child's environment. Once it's done, it can't be wished away, and the effects may be unexpected. That's even assuming the parents are incredibly calm, level-headed, compassionate people. Which many are not.

[DarthMarth]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

Same here, and I deserved every one I ever had...
But in raising my child I never spanked even once or raised my voice..
When punishment was called for, we took away privileges away...
TV, telephone use, ...and heaven forbid her gaming systems....
Once after she ran down the hallway to her room and slammed the door in disgust with her parents, she awoke the next morning without a door to her room.

I have had both of these punishments used against me(more recent than some of you may be thinking) and I believe they are not very helpful. First of all taking away what the child enjoys seems like a bad idea, not only can the child resort to some other form of entertainment but it's bad for the overall relationship. Why should s/he talk to you about what they enjoy when they think you're just gathering information on what type of punishment you should use. Not to mention it's demoralizing and they probably think you're not taking their problem seriously.
As for the door, slamming a door does nothing, in fact it's better. It releases anger in a better way than most, and makes them think they had the upper hand thus ending any power struggle. Taking away the door is merely an invasion of privacy. The child will either behave until what they want is back thus causing a never-ending cycle, or they will attempt to take it by force. While I feel the only way you can ever change someone is to lead by example, Spanking does seem to be slightly helpful in extreme cases. Spanking will send a message to the child that you are serious especially when it's such a controversial issue; "zomg my parents just risked going to jail to punish me." Spanking may cause "psychological damage" and that's exactly what they need: a change in mindset. Also, physical punishment has worked for thousands of years, why fix it if it ain't broken? especially in light of such recent events at certain schools...

[Dottie]

Originally Posted by DarthMarth

I have had both of these punishments used against me(more recent than some of you may be thinking) and I believe they are not very helpful.

Originally Posted by sinbad71

Having been on the receiving end of a few well deserved spankings in my time, it has given me a a very clear definition of whats wrong and whats right.

Are there any particular reason you believe that you perception of your own upbringing is representative, or even accurate? I can just as well claim I've never been spanked and have grown up to be mother Theresa. Anecdotes have very little value when it comes to determine causality of anything.

Also, physical punishment has worked for thousands of years, why fix it if it ain't broken? especially in light of such recent events at certain schools...

I don't know if that was meant seriously or not, but that a behaviour have been in practice for a long time is obviously not an indication of it's desirability, as I'm sure you agree.

Regarding the effects of spanking APA has, as usual , made information about it available for free, and in full.

Summary:
Is Corporal Punishment An Effective Means Of Discipline?

Article:
http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1284539.pdf

As you can see, this suggest that corporal punishment is in fact broken.

Spanking may cause "psychological damage" and that's exactly what they need: a change in mindset.

And still, data suggests corporal punishment does much to change a child's immediate behaviour but does not change their mindset.

Originally Posted by Article above

Moral Internalization
Although immediate compliance may be a salient goal when
parents initiate discipline, promoting the development of children’s
internal controls is more important to long-term socialization
than immediate compliance (Grolnick, Deci, & Ryan, 1997;
Hoffman, 1983; Kohlberg, 1969; Lepper, 1983; Piaget, 1932/
1965). Moral internalization is defined by Grusec and Goodnow
(1994) as “taking over the values and attitudes of society as one’s
own so that socially acceptable behavior is motivated not by
anticipation of external consequences but by intrinsic or internal
factors” (p. 4), and it is thought to underlie the development of
children’s social and emotional competence (Kochanska &
Thompson, 1997). Children’s internalization of morals is thought
to be enhanced by parental discipline strategies that use minimal
parental power, promote choice and autonomy, and provide explanations
for desirable behaviors (Kuczynski & Hildebrandt, 1997).
Attribution theorists emphasize that power-assertive methods suchas corporal punishment promote children’s external attributions for their behavior and minimize their attributions to internal motivations
(Dix & Grusec, 1983; Hoffman, 1983; Lepper, 1983). Additionally,
corporal punishment may not facilitate moral internalization
because it does not teach children the reasons for behaving
correctly, does not involve communication of the effects of children’s
behaviors on others, and may teach children the desirability
of not getting caught (Hoffman, 1983; Grusec, 1983; Smetana,
1997).

@Curdis: Surely, when people talk about corporal punishment they refer to inflicting physical pain? If used in that sense restraining would not qualify.