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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2004, 04:38 PM
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To lie or not to lie

There are basically two issues. The first is a simple one to understand but very hard to answer. I am one of the trusted people in my group of friends. So i basically know what everybody does and what their problems are. So if someone is upset i am normally asked because the rest of the group is worried about said person. Now the question is what do i do? Do i lie and say that i dont know or do i be honest and say i cant tell you. Either way i am in trouble. If i lie i am basically committing a sin and i prefer not to lie to my friends as it is an issue of trust. If i tell them i cant tell them what i know they hound me till the ends of the earth to find out. It is very annoying.

To add i usually have two rules about sharing information or gossiping. If i do pass on information, i never tell you who told me or why they said they did. I basically said some one said this. This is a fault of yours work on it. Basically because there can be a lot of causes of friction if you dont communicate and in general people dont communicate so i am forced to stop anything from starting. However people dont respect that either.

Now the second problem. Because so many trust me and confide in me or look to me for Allah knows what, i have the ability to manipulate them. And honest to god i dont even want to be put in such a position. Women especially pakistani women have such low self-esteems that i am basically forced to say what they want to hear and i can do it with a sincerety that surprises me. There have been conversations where i have said so much stuff that thought after the fact was utter bull**** and i didnt mean any of it. But the person is happy and such. That of course could allow me to use my "influence" to give or change ideas etc. Basically i want to know how do i check myself from manipulating people.

Do i offer white lies or not. Heck i have this pegged down. I know three lines which will automatically put me a girls good books, and two lines that may cause the girl to think of me in a more "romanitically proven light". I frankly stumbled across this and have tried it out on 11 pakistani girls and it has not failed. All five lines when said over a series of conversations prove to be quite effective. I am not saying that i understand women. Heaven forbid i break that law of nature but its just shocking that those 5 little lines change their mood or opinion so. However there is one line that will of course break it all. But that is a no brainer. Just say you want to have fun with them and nothing serious.

That above applies only to pakistani girls. They are an unusual breed that Allah forgive me, should never have been created in such vast numbers. But what scares me is how i can influence the way people think and how i have the ability to manipulate them. I dont want to be put in that position because honestly i dont trust himself. I am human and thus easily sway to the dark side of the force. I dont want the ability. So how do i check myself?

I have been thinking about this for the last 2 weeks. Talked a good friend today. One very morally inclined. More than me. Tomorrow or this week i speak to my didi and my little sister. I also thought that SYM has alot of people wiser than me so lets see what you guys have to say. To simply it:

1. Do i lie to my friends to protect another friends privacy or do i tell them i cant tell you regardless how much you care?

2. I have the potential or ability to maybe manipulate people. I dont want that and i dont trust myself. So how do i check it?

Its late here and i wanna sleep. I will respond to the Marvel Comics and Religion threads tomorrow.
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Old 06-27-2004, 07:20 PM
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1. I've been in this position, too. Its not easy. I have done both, white lies and "I can't tell you"...feigning ignorence works well, but even putting aside the issue of immorality, lying can also blow up in your face. If you friends do not understand your need to keep a secret honourably, will they understand if they find out you lied to them?

When I used to be asked what was wrong with a certain person, I didn't say that it wasn't their business, as this slaps them back down (not something you want to do, particularly if they care for the person you have the confidence of). Instead, I just said that it wasn't my place to tell, that it wasn't my secret. If they wanted to know what was wrong, they should ask the person involved: that is a good way to show they care. You just need to stick by that, even if they press onwards. Eventually, I got a reputation for being honest and worthy of trust, since I could keep secrets, and people stopped harassing me as they knew it would be fruitless.

So, my advice to you comes from my personal experience. Don't lie, just make it clear to them that its not your place to tell.

2. One can unfortunately rationalize behaviour as supportive when it's actually rather manipulative. I've been guilty of that as have my friends when they've tried to help me. Granted though, sometimes truth isn't exactly the best thing, is it? Perhaps telling someone a white lie to build their confidence will actually make that lie into truth. But, this is manipulative.

Its a difficult question, one which brings us back the "Do the ends justify the means?" question. In truth, I don't really have an answer for you. Always try to be truthful, I guess, and take comfort in the fact that while you might be sometimes "manipulative" (or "supportive"), you are not causing harm (provided you didn't utter a blatant lie), and you have their best interests at heart. Most people do generally want the truth, though; they don't like to hear it, but in retrospect, they always say they wanted it (I'm quite guilty of that, too).

My 2 gp.
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Old 06-28-2004, 12:32 AM
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This is an awkward situation to be in... and as is the case so often, much is subjective, and depends on the people and cultures involved. From my own perspective, and note, it is only my perspective...

I think that trying to be as honest as possible is the best route to follow. I would suggest, tell your friends when they ask about others, that you respect the privacy of the confidences they all share with you. When one person badgers you for information about another, ask them how they would feel if you betrayed a confidence of their own.

I also tend to agree with Nightmare, if you maintain your ground, eventually people will stop pestering you, and respect your wishes. IMO, it is also a good idea to simply tell these individuals that if they are concerned they should approach the person they are concerned about directly, rather than expecting you to provide them with infomation.

It seems to me that people hold you in very high esteem, given that they frequently confide in you. I think this means if you are somewhat forceful about refusing to divulge information, while explicitly stating why you feel the way you do... you will be respected for it in the long run.
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Old 06-28-2004, 08:39 AM
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Fas, I've been (and still am) in a similar situation like yourself. Most likely, this social situation is a consequence of having certain personality traits, so you will have to learn how to deal with it in an adaptive manner since you will probably be in this position the rest of you life.

1. Like DW, my opinion is that lying should be avoided as much as possible. Instead of pretending you don't know, I think it's much better to admit you do know, but you cannot tell since you have promised not to. When you confront the curious person like DW suggest, they should realise that they themselves wouldn't want you to tell other's what they have privately confided to you. You can also use broad, general expressions such as "He is having some difficulties right now, I suggest you ask him if you feel concerned". If your friends don't accept that you keep the integrety of others - to hell with them

2. We all have the ability to manipulate others to a certain extent, especially people who are close to us and are emotionally attached to us. However, what you describe here is an extension of that natural social phenomenon - an ability to possibly influence many more people, perhaps people who don't know you and perhaps to the dangerous extent where exploit and making people do things they will regret later.

A fundamental issue here is the very important distiction between influence and manipulation. Influence is something open, it could be conscious or unconscious, but it is out in the open, whereas manipulation is hidden from the person being manipulated. Either the true goal is hidden, or the methods, or both. I would give you a couple of examples:

I used to have patients in psychotherapy when I worked as a clinician. Psychotherapy is all about helping and supporting a person to change disruptive aspects of himself. I work with Cognitive Behavioural therapy. There is no secret agenda - you make an asssessment and a diagnosis to define the patients' problems, you present to the patient how you are going to work with it, and each and every step you take, you explain to the patient why you are doing this and what the expected outcome should be. Still, it is one of the most powerful ways to influence another person's behaviour, thinking and even emotions.

Another example is when my friends are doing things I strongly dissapprove of, such as displaying self-destructive behaviour (ie taking drugs, staying in a bad relationship or at a bad job). Let's say I have a friend who drink too much. I will explore the reasons why my friend is drinking to much and try to persuade him and support him to change the underlying causes. I will present all the arguments why drinking is bad for him, and I will offer alternative coping strategies that are less destructive for him. In short, I will bombard him with the goal to make him quit drinking - but I will do this without going behind his back (ie make his girlfriends hide the wine bottles in their home) and without using emotional blackmailing (ie make him feel guilty by telling him how bad I fell because he is drinking, or stating he is such a bad person so I don't want to be friends with him unless he quits drinking).

Both the above are examples of how you can influence people without resorting to manipulation. Typical examples of manipulation on the other hand, include all the kind of rhetorics you see in popular media and from politicans. Appeal to irrational, emotional arguments rather than factual arguments, claiming one thing but having a hidden agenda, making people support things without knowing what they are supporting. However, on a smaller scale you see this between individuals as well. Sometimes manipulation is unintentional or at least unconscious, such as is often seen among people who feel insecure that they can get what they want and people who feel they don't have as much power as they believe they should have. This kind of behaviour is easy to avoid by simply making sure you have a good self-knowledge and self-confidence and also checking you own behaviour in situations where you know you are vulnerable. Then you have the intentional manipulation - you can flatter, lie and befriend other people to follow you wishes, but I understand this is what you want to avoid. So if you don't trust yourself you must check yourself by constantly ask yourself:

A) If you really mean something genuinly or not
B) "Theory of mind"-questions and if you genunily want the consequences of these or not.

"Theory of mind" is how we think other people will respond in terms of emotions and intentions. So let's say that you can't trust yourself when it comes to attractive, easily manipulated girls. Then you apply the above by:

1. Before saying compliments, ask yourself whether you really mean it or if it is merely politeness. Or if you do it because you feel good when the girls respond positively to your compliments.
2. Use the "theory of mind" view: how do you think the other person will respond to your behaviour? Let's say you really think this girl is pretty and intelligent. But if you say so, she might think that you are hitting on her. Do you really want her to get the impression that you hit on her? If she thinks so, what are you going to do then? Assess the situation, and decide what consequences you are prepared to face and how.

The ability to influence other people is something that can be used for very constructive purposes. I think it should be used in order to influence people to form their own opionions based on facts and rational arguments, to make their own informed choices and to be critical.
I would recommend to only use manipulation skills as a last resort in extreme situations, such as if you have a friend who is stuck in an abusive relationship, drug addiction or caught in a destructive cult, and all fair ways to influence the person has failed.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2004, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM
...1. Do i lie to my friends to protect another friends privacy or do i tell them i cant tell you regardless how much you care?

2. I have the potential or ability to maybe manipulate people. I dont want that and i dont trust myself. So how do i check it?
I like you Fas, so I'm gonna do something I rarely do, and give my two cents on such matters.

1) Never lie. Not about this kinda stuff, anyway. I mean, you know, if you are a secret agent man, and you have to lie to make a living that's one thing. I've always thought it would be fun to be a secret agent man. Bond sure does get the women, doesn't he? 'Course I'm a monk, so I dunno that I should be dwelling on such things. But Halle Berry - wow!

Uh - where was I?

Oh - yeah. Don't lie. Lying is bad. Unless you're a secret agent man. Are you?

2) Don't manipulate people. I suppose I should put in the caveat about being a secret agent man, here, too. I mean, if you are one, you probably find the ability to manipulate the bad guys really useful. Or the women. Halle Berry ...

Sorry! Got lost in my thoughts there.

Anyhoo! The easiest thing in both cases is 100% openness on the subject. Tell people you can't tell them what has been said to you in trust. Tell them to take it up with the other people involved. Talk to people about subjects that you feel you could "manipulate" them in, but explain that the most important thing is that they decide for themselves. Show both sides of an issue.

BlablablaAdviceBlablabla...

Peace.
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