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This Iraq debate thing !  
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2003, 03:24 AM
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This 'Iraq potential' war is getting confusing. There is now the 'moral question' of killing a few people in war as opposed to leaving sadam to kill many (what a great choice!)

So if you think your a bit confused just see this 'devils advocate' and the video will play automatically.


http://www.brain-terminal.com/articl...e-protest.html

It would be funny if it wasnt true!

(thats not to say people who want a war are any smarter though.)
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Old 02-21-2003, 05:29 AM
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I find his educated accent so compelling that I cannot bring myself to question the accuracy of his assumptions.
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Old 02-21-2003, 05:49 AM
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Check out what the Onion has to say.
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Old 02-21-2003, 08:26 AM
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I can't open EITHER links!

(I'm at work, we block most sites)


I guess I won't be able to have my opinions formed for the day, darn it all!
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Old 02-21-2003, 08:29 AM
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You need help Viv.

Edit: I saw the link and well i refrain from politics.
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Last edited by CM; 02-21-2003 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 02-21-2003, 08:49 AM
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The text of the link from the Onion:
----------------------------------------------------------------

Point-Counterpoint: The Iraq Invasion

No Blood for Oil!

By Susan Winger
President,
Democracy In Action

Contrary to what he would have you believe, President Bush's plans to invade Iraq have nothing to do with such high-minded goals as liberating the Iraqi people or saving the world from terrorism. His "principled" stand is actually just a thinly veiled attempt to gain control of the oil-rich Middle East at the cost of human lives. It is time for the people of the United States to rise up and say, "No blood for oil!"

Bush talks about freedom, but what kind? The freedom to drive gas-guzzling SUVs without worrying about the price of gas going above $2 a gallon? If we go to war, innocent lives will be lost to satisfy Generalissimo Bush's insatiable gaslust and line the bulging pockets of the corporate and oil interests that put him in office.

We've got to stand up and make our voices heard. This war is not what most Americans want. What's more, Bush is acting against not only the will of a majority of Americans, but also the will of the world. France and Germany have demanded to see more evidence of Iraq's attempts to conceal weapons of mass destruction, yet Bush continues to ram his warmongering agenda down everyone's throats, all for his precious black gold.

The president claims that Iraq is "a danger to the world," but it is the U.S. that represents the real danger. We are the ones who act like bullies, intimidating those who don't go along with our imperialist agenda with threats of invasion and worse. Unlike some countries I could name, Iraq never dropped an atomic bomb on anybody. The bottom line is, Bush has no right to wage a "preemptive" war against Iraq.

The White House continues to beat the war drum, frightening the American public into believing this war is necessary for the safety of the world. Bush is trying to scare up support for an invasion under the pretense that Saddam intends to unleash chemical, biological, or nuclear warfare on his enemies, but there is no real evidence that these are his plans. There is real evidence, on the other hand, that President Bush was put in office by Big Oil and would do anything to avoid having to develop responsible, earth-friendly alternative energy sources.

Most offensive of all, the tragic events of Sept. 11 are being manipulated by Bush to further his agenda. Under the guise of the "war on terrorism," Bush has declared that members of his "Axis of Evil" are a threat and subject to military attacks. Is it coincidence that the one Axis of Evil nation Bush has singled out for attack also holds the greatest opportunity for profit? I think not.

Let the U.N. inspections work. No blood for oil!

Exactly How Much Oil Are We Talking About?

By Kenneth W. Parton
Americans For Non-Alternative Energy

I keep hearing the anti-war protesters chant, "No blood for oil! No blood for oil!" But what they never seem to say is exactly how much oil we're talking about. Don't you think that's pertinent information? Are we talking a gallon of oil for every 10 gallons of blood? Or is it more like 30 gallons of oil for every pint of blood? Because if it's the latter, maybe a blood-oil exchange would be a good idea.

In the first Gulf War, roughly 300 brave Americans lost their lives. Assuming that each of these soldiers shed an average of eight pints of blood, that works out to roughly a pint of American blood shed per 60 million barrels of Kuwaiti crude saved from the clutches of Saddam. If you ask me, that's a pretty darn good deal. If we can manage to swing a similar trade this time around, then I say, "Bombs away."

We should also know what kind of blood we're giving up. Is it O-positive, the universal donor? I'd be more reluctant to part with that than some useless AB junk. If Bush and Rumsfeld spill, say, 100,000 gallons of B-negative or AB-positive soldier blood for an equivalent amount of primo Mideast oil, that may be well worth considering.

So, you see, you can't argue in the abstract like those naïve protesters on college campuses are doing. You've got to look at the hard numbers if you're going to make an informed decision about a potential blood-for-oil swap.

Sending innocent young men and women into battle to die is the most difficult decision a president can make. But it's that much easier when you know what you're getting in return. If I were Bush, I'd definitely do it if we could get the price of a gallon of Amoco Ultra Unleaded down to $1.19. Maybe even $1.21. Anything higher would give me pause. But $1.21 is a great price for a gallon. I would take a lot more weekend roadtrips if gas were that cheap. I might even upgrade to one of those Lincoln Navigators I've been seeing ads for on TV. That's a beautiful car.

Nobody wants to see brave young Americans sent off to die. Nobody wants to see blood spilled for oil. But if it comes to that, wouldn't we all feel better knowing that their blood was spilled for a great deal of oil? I know I sure would.
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Old 02-21-2003, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CM
You need help Viv.

Edit: I saw the link and well i refrain from politics.
*hug* I understand.


By the way...what *is* your avatar? It looks like it's dancing? Is this part of your ploy for fairmaiden, your way of sweeping her off her feet?



HLD:
Ah! Hmm...I've heard that opinion before actually!

The upcoming war is the biggest fight between my fiance and I currently.
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Old 02-21-2003, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vivien
*hug* I understand.


By the way...what *is* your avatar? It looks like it's dancing? Is this part of your ploy for fairmaiden, your way of sweeping her off her feet?
Nothing of the sort Viv. Nothing of the sort. What my avator really is? Well there was a thread about, something to do with killing kittens if i remember correctly
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For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran

"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
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Old 02-21-2003, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fairmaiden
@ Vivien

Alas, Fas and I are no more
Oh

I saw parts of the two of you together...I think you got him to say 'I wuv you'!! That was amazing! How did you do it?

*prepares to take notes*



Fas:

What did you do to her?

Ha! Kitten killer! Ha! It's a little singing and dancing box! Clearly it's all part of your ploy
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Old 02-21-2003, 10:02 AM
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Guys, this is an Iraq debate thread. Although the original poster didn't write "no spam" at the top, it's kind of understood, given the subject. Let's please respect his wishes. I think there are at least one or two other threads in SYM for spamming. Yes--in fact, maybe three.
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Old 02-21-2003, 10:50 AM
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I apologize for intruding and will leave this to those who are able to keep on topic.
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Old 02-21-2003, 11:04 AM
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That was great At99. While it may be questionable if the interviewer was 100% accurate this can also be said about the onion and any other opinion based protester. It is those ignorant statements like "Bush is like Hitler" that make protesters at least in my eye appear more on the wave length of trend followers. For example all the celebs that are vocally anti war, yet the amount of cash hollywood gives the gov' isn't what thier speaking on.

I did truly enjoy when he asked them why didnt we take the oil fields last time. Fable got an answer?
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Old 02-21-2003, 11:11 AM
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He he Hey all check out this website, Bush isn't Hitler hes the antichrist.

www.geocities.com/trebor_92627/Bush.htm
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Old 02-21-2003, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RandomThug
I did truly enjoy when he asked them why didnt we take the oil fields last time. Fable got an answer?
May I ask why you didnt free Iraq from sadam last time?

Also, if I remember correctly you did take the oil fields last time, only they happened to be placed in kuwait, not iraq.

@HLD: ROFL That second article is priceless.
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Old 02-21-2003, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RandomThug
I did truly enjoy when he asked them why didnt we take the oil fields last time. Fable got an answer?
You mean, why Bush Sr didn't approve toppling the Hussein regime at the end of the Gulf War? Several reasons. 1) There was no UN mandate to do so. Dubya is ignoring that, because of reason #3. 2) The US had experienced a propaganda windfall with the Arab nations as a result. Bush sadly didn't know how to capitalize on this, but he did know better than to muck it up by going after the Iraqi oil fields. 3) Bush Sr was a moderate Republican (with admittedly a personal manner like a pit viper, at times), while Dubya is a radical technocrat who believes the US' escalating requirements for world energy can only be met by increased access to cheap fossil fuels--remember, he's worked primarily as the corporate head of a multimillion dollar oil firm. Many of the first and second tier members of his administration have long experience working in the fossil fuel industry; some stepped down from jobs to take the positions he offered. And his administration has more people from that industry than all the top level execs in previous presidential administrations, combined.
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Last edited by fable; 02-21-2003 at 11:22 AM.
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