The religious evangelical far right, and Halloween (no spam)

[Ronan]

It's this sort of stuff that I can never believe. I just cannot imagine a person who would actually say stuff like this. It's not like I don't trust the sources I'm reading, but...but how can such people exist?

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by endboss I was actually mocking the Christian view of witches who run around casting spells and invoking curses just for the sake of... I dunno... gaining Evil XP or whatever. To draw an analogy, it would be like saying to an atheist (a term I associate with myself), "So how many layers is your super secret society that wants to turn humans into immoral monsters, and how many times a day to you face the Galapagos and pray to Darwin?"

Fair enough. You'll live another day.

Although this material was scrubbed from Robertson's site by the end of day, it's only fair to mention that he regularly carries such stuff, and often broadcasts it. Back in the 1980s, he repeatedly called for the invasion of Mainland China because the inhabitants were demons who hated and killed Christians. This is a fringe, but a very vocal and well-monied fringe, and when you add up even the tiny percentage of people around the world who feel this way, they make a sizable throng. As I've often noted, there's no need for horror films if you want to simply contemplate humanity in all its glory.

[endboss]

Fringe? Most conservatives would love nothing more than to get into a war with China. They see our Asian friends as competitors and rivals; not as potential partners. They are guided by ideologies. Fortunately, businessmen are guided by the almighty dollar, and didn't let those Bush administration nutjobs get away with trying to provoke the dragon.

The real sad part is that all these religious groups are often exempt from actual laws and receive tax payer dollars to fund their proselytizing and other shenanigans. They'll make for excellent fodder in Valhalla.

[Fljotsdale]

I loathe religion from the botom of my heart. Not necessarily the believers, who are often (not always) very nice people; just the religions.

I am even prepared to believe that many of the clergy are perfectly nice, genuine, caring people. And that religion has some good points: it teaches people (theoretically, at least) to behave decently to others.

But, on the whole, religion stifles thought, and would like to return us all to the days of blind acceptance of the 'truth' in whatever form the religion sees it. Religion is still living at least two centuries in the past, and in some cases even in medieval times.

Religion is terrifying in its potential to destroy our society.

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by endboss Fringe? Most conservatives would love nothing more than to get into a war with China.

Most neo-cons would, yes. But many neo-cons are not religious conservatives, or even religious. Dubya's minister claimed he visited church once or twice a year, and his private remarks about it, reported in several books by former close aids, indicate he saw religion as a sucker's game.

But the religious fringe is not identical to the neo-cons, and neither is the same as the rank-and-file conservative. These are three very different groups engaged for various reasons in an unholy alliance in the US Republican Party, often jockeying for control, but closing ranks against any attempt to bring any other party to the fore.

Quote:

They see our Asian friends as competitors and rivals; not as potential partners. They are guided by ideologies. Fortunately, businessmen are guided by the almighty dollar, and didn't let those Bush administration nutjobs get away with trying to provoke the dragon.

Complete and utter agreement that the neo-cons are like that. The organization they formed in the 1990s to pursue this policy had a large "plan for the 21st century" that included challenging China for dominance, after first securing numerous bases in MidEastern nations. They've reorganized since the disaster that was the Bush years, formed a new organization, and are pushing the same old BS. But again, they aren't the religious wing of the Republican party.

Quote:

The real sad part is that all these religious groups are often exempt from actual laws and receive tax payer dollars to fund their proselytizing and other shenanigans. They'll make for excellent fodder in Valhalla.

The US government has always been unwilling to prosecute any religious organization for misuse of its 401(c)3 status as a non-profit, for fear of drawing down the anger of all religious organizations. This is behind the reason all those rightwing nutjob religious stations that still proliferate in the US in the lower end of the FM band, set aside for public radio stations. What makes a privately owned church a "public" organization? None I know of. But nobody wants to touch this, anymore than anybody in DC wants to deal with Israel's blatant disregard for UN regulations over Palestine. Some things are simply considered too sensitive by every government.

Quote:

But, on the whole, religion stifles thought...

No, it really doesn't. A few particular religions, just like some governments, and many cultures, stifle thought of different kinds; many do not. (I'm sorry if this sounds abrupt, but if I'm not hearing people saying "religion is everything good," I'm hearing people stating, "religion is everything bad." And killing thought is at the head of the second list.) But if you want to have this thoughtful discussion, by all means, start up a thread and we can have at it.

[endboss]

I probably should have been more precise. I was saying that, as a whole, the people who demonize China are not a fringe group. The religious right fears them for one reason, and the neo-cons for another, and both happen to be in bed together so distrust over the country is not fringe. A bit off-topic, I know.

I disagree about the Bush statement, but it really is irrelevant. What is relevant is what he portrayed and the extremely harmful movement he created. His true war was on intellectualism and the Constitution. Whether he was a fundamentalist to the core (highly unlikely since he joined in communal prayer with ambassadors of other faiths), only moderately religious, or in fact pulling an elaborate hoax to fulfill some other purpose does not change that.

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by endboss I probably should have been more precise. I was saying that, as a whole, the people who demonize China are not a fringe group. The religious right fears them for one reason, and the neo-cons for another, and both happen to be in bed together so distrust over the country is not fringe. A bit off-topic, I know.

Well, close enough. I'd have put up there "spam on subject," but we'd end up with 15 different posts telling us how evil religion is, and I wanted to focus on this bizarre anti-Halloween rant from someone who clearly wasn't taking their lithium.

Quote:

I disagree about the Bush statement, but it really is irrelevant. What is relevant is what he portrayed and the extremely harmful movement he created. His true war was on intellectualism and the Constitution. Whether he was a fundamentalist to the core (highly unlikely since he joined in communal prayer with ambassadors of other faiths), only moderately religious, or in fact pulling an elaborate hoax to fulfill some other purpose does not change that.

To pull it all together, I can't help but think that the well-meaning paranoids like Ms. Daniels, and the grand-standing politicians like Bush (who created a "Jesus Day" in Texas when he was governor) actually foment an attitude of hysteria towards religious minorities. That tends to happen when you demonize the latter, or pointedly wave flags for the overwhelming majority. What sets Daniels apart for most others isn't a level of hate, but the utter bizarreness of her reality. It is just so far out there that even a long experienced zealot and xenophobe like Pat Robertson yanked her ravings.

[Fljotsdale]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable No, it really doesn't. A few particular religions, just like some governments, and many cultures, stifle thought of different kinds; many do not. (I'm sorry if this sounds abrupt, but if I'm not hearing people saying "religion is everything good," I'm hearing people stating, "religion is everything bad." And killing thought is at the head of the second list.) But if you want to have this thoughtful discussion, by all means, start up a thread and we can have at it.

I might take you up on that. I really enjoy religious debate!

Not that I actually SAID 'religion is everything bad'; I acknowledged that many believers are nice people. On the other hand... many ain't!

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

To be fair, China frequently scares the bejebus out of me too...