The Caged Virgin

[Fiona]

I have no way of knowing how accurate this is and I would like to hear from anyone who knows about this situation

http://www.slate.com/id/2141276/


This part struck me as particularly depressing

.....After being forced into hiding by fascist killers, Ayaan Hirsi Ali found that the Dutch government and people were slightly embarrassed to have such a prominent "Third World" spokeswoman in their midst. She was first kept as a virtual prisoner, which made it almost impossible for her to do her job as an elected representative. When she complained in the press, she was eventually found an apartment in a protected building. Then the other residents of the block filed suit and complained that her presence exposed them to risk. In spite of testimony from the Dutch police, who assured the court that the building was now one of the safest in all Holland, a court has upheld the demand from her neighbors and fellow citizens that she be evicted from her home. In these circumstances, she is considering resigning from parliament and perhaps leaving her adopted country altogether. This is not the only example that I know of a supposedly liberal society collaborating in its own destruction.....

If it is an accurate account of what is happeining is this a consequence of a politics or a society too much influenced by outrage and indignation? Or too willing to accept that culture is sancrosanct in some sense? I realise that this perhaps touches on some of the same issues as the cartoon thread and I hope we need not get very heated about it. But I did find it disturbing. Has anyone any thoughts about it?

[Damuna_Nova]

How do you circumcise a woman?

[dragon wench]

I find this extremely disturbing....
It is why I have always been wary of "cultural relativism." It is a wonderful ideal to be tolerant of all societies and to perceive them through their own cultural lens... but when segments of a particular society are subject to gross injustice I cannot condone it, no matter how politically incorrect I may appear.

I don't know very much about this particular situation, but hopefully those from the Netherlands will have further information.


@Damuna,
Female circumcision
(remember, Google and Wikipedia are your friends)

[Damuna_Nova]

Originally Posted by dragon wench

@Damuna,
Female circumcision
(remember, Google and Wikipedia are your friends)

So which part are they remoing?

I'm going to make a guess at the ****oris, seeing as it's only there for pleasure it could be perceied as "unholy".

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Damuna_Nova

So which part are they remoing?

Read the link DM

[ellipsis jones]

The Hitchens piece is completely accurate. There's a bit more on the story here:

http://www.peaktalk.com/archives/002165.php

[Lestat]

The writer, Christopher Hitchens, tends to be strongly provocative and anti-PC, especially where it concerns relations with Islam. Frankly speaking, I don't like his usual style.

So though based on real facts, and the attitude that he describes is there, I think he's slightly exaggerating. But one of the Dutchies on the board could be more help. I know that Ms. Hirsi Ali is still active in politics (and recently has critisised the Minister for Immigration, even though both are of the same party (right-wing liberals VVD)).

Oh, for Americans: liberals does not equate left-wing in continental Europe, often on the contrary (more comparable to business friendly republicans, but with a areligious and sometimes anticlerical stance, sometimes with a history in freemasonry).

[VonDondu]

Originally Posted by Fiona

is this a consequence of a politics or a society too much influenced by outrage and indignation? Or too willing to accept that culture is sancrosanct in some sense?

From what I gather, the police are afraid of violent subcultures. According to the article (which I do not completely trust since it was written by Christopher Hitchens, who regularly ignores important facts and twists the truth), Ayaan Hirsi Ali switched party affiliations after "9/11" because her former party "had become so infatuated by their own 'multi-culti' style that they had ignored the rights of individuals—especially women and girls—who were imprisoned within their own ghetto. (That, by the way, was precisely Spinoza's problem as well. The Dutch rabbis cursed him and condemned him in their own sectarian 'court,' of which the Christian authorities approved because it took care of dangerous secularism among Jews.)" In other words, her former party members are the ones who respect "multi-culturalism", while local authorities are content not to become involved in the internal affairs of such groups because they tend to be violent and dangerous. We all seem to think that the police should guarantee justice for all, but on the practical side, the best they can hope to accomplish is to keep the peace at the expense of those individuals whom they are unable to protect. Governments are not omnipotent.

[Damuna_Nova]

Originally Posted by Fiona

Read the link DM

I did, it lists quite a lot of different ways.

[dragon wench]

Originally Posted by Damuna_Nova

I did, it lists quite a lot of different ways.

Then you can safely assume that the reference indicates any number of those ways.

[ik911]

Latest news:

In May 2006 the Dutch television program "Zembla" rekindled interest in the fact that in her asylum request, Hirsi Ali lied about her background. Media speculations arose that she could lose her Dutch Citizenship because of this 'identity fraud', rendering her ineligible for Parliament. In a first reaction Minister Rita Verdonk said she would not look into the matter, but later declared she would investigate Hirsi Ali's naturalisation process.

[Damuna_Nova]

Originally Posted by ik911

Latest news:

In May 2006 the Dutch television program "Zembla" rekindled interest in the fact that in her asylum request, Hirsi Ali lied about her background. Media speculations arose that she could lose her Dutch Citizenship because of this 'identity fraud', rendering her ineligible for Parliament. In a first reaction Minister Rita Verdonk said she would not look into the matter, but later declared she would investigate Hirsi Ali's naturalisation process.

It would be a iolation of human rights to reoke her Dutch Citizenship, that would cast her out into the dangers of the world where she would be killed. Her reasons for lying to get into the country are justified considering what would happen if she didn't.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Damuna_Nova

It would be a iolation of human rights to reoke her Dutch Citizenship, that would cast her out into the dangers of the world where she would be killed. Her reasons for lying to get into the country are justified considering what would happen if she didn't.

On that topic there has been a disturbing development in the last couple of days in the UK. Senior government figures are considering legislation to "clarify" the implications of the human rights act, which they characterise as undermining national security in some areas

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4768259.stm

[ik911]

Originally Posted by Damuna_Nova

It would be a iolation of human rights to reoke her Dutch Citizenship, that would cast her out into the dangers of the world where she would be killed. Her reasons for lying to get into the country are justified considering what would happen if she didn't.

Well, the thing is, she wasn't in danger when she was leaving Kenya. But you wouldn't get dutch citizenship when you weren't. That's why she lied. Basically, she cheated.

[Damuna_Nova]

Originally Posted by ik911

Well, the thing is, she wasn't in danger when she was leaving Kenya. But you wouldn't get dutch citizenship when you weren't. That's why she lied. Basically, she cheated.

Oh well, she's in danger of death now.

I suppose there's some ironic justice there...