The Art of War

[Sytze]

For Christmas, I found "The Art of War", edited by James Clavell under the tree, but it was not really what I was looking for. So now I can trade my gift.
I'm actually looking for original book; the Art of War, by Sun Tzu, but I just can't find it.

I asked around in bookstores, tried some searches with google and what else, but the only books/pockets I find are rewritten ones. Rewritten, as in authors giving their own twist and opinion to the original book and that is not what I want. I know the original book was translated in 1910, but is that translated version even available?

Some help would be appreciated.

[fable]

Web searches are your friend. Try here.

[Vicsun]

This was the fifth result I got when I searched for sun tzu art of war on Amazon.com. It includes the original teachings of Sun-Tzu as well as his grandson's take on the same topic. A brief glance at the reviews seemed to indicate people who purchased it were quite happy.

[Sytze]

I came across this in my search as well.

"Translated from the Chinese with Introduction and Critical Notes
BY LIONEL GILES, M.A."

But this is edited and opinionated, too. Didn't Sun Tzu write his own book, but instead made some raw paper drafts or something? I mean, he made a book right? Is there really no literal translated version?

Edit: I've been reading a bit of the text in fable's link and, combined with other searches, I have to wonder if Sun Tzu really wrote a whole book. I mean, all I come across are (translated) versions which explain Sun Tzu's writing very systematically. It's not really a story, but instead more a list of opinions and thoughts.

[Vicsun]

Did you look at the link in my post? The book I linked to wasn't an opinion on Sun Tzu's work, it was the work itself. Reading through the first few pages leaves the impression it is indeed Sun Tzu's translated writings.

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytze Edit: I've been reading a bit of the text in fable's link and, combined with other searches, I have to wonder if Sun Tzu really wrote a whole book. I mean, all I come across are (translated) versions which explain Sun Tzu's writing very systematically. It's not really a story, but instead more a list of opinions and thoughts.

But that *is* his book. Like Musashi's A Book of Five Rings, it distills his accrued knowledge into lengthy advice. It is not meant to be read as you would read a modern work of non-fiction, for linear causes/results. It's supposed to be pondered, meditated upon, and learned as a philosophy that can be applied to the battlefield and by extension, to life. I'm not saying you or I should follow this--but that was the intent. It is a philosophical treatise, as much as anything else.

[Vicsun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable ...it distills his accrued knowledge into lengthy advice.

But wouldn't that be the opposite of distillation? Since the knowledge is concentrated, wouldn't the advice be some sort of dillution so that the information can be consumed more easily?

Sorry for the, uh... alcoholic spam.

[Sytze]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicsun Did you look at the link in my post? The book I linked to wasn't an opinion on Sun Tzu's work, it was the work itself. Reading through the first few pages leaves the impression it is indeed Sun Tzu's translated writings.

When I wrote my post, I didn’t look at your link yet, no. After checking your link out, however, it seems that the book contains a lot of material (at least 300 pages). Your finding sounds like a real book to me, unlike former searches.
Which leads me to fable’s post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable But that *is* his book. Like Musashi's A Book of Five Rings, it distills his accrued knowledge into lengthy advice. It is not meant to be read as you would read a modern work of non-fiction, for linear causes/results. It's supposed to be pondered, meditated upon, and learned as a philosophy that can be applied to the battlefield and by extension, to life. I'm not saying you or I should follow this--but that was the intent. It is a philosophical treatise, as much as anything else.

Many searches that I came up with, explained Sun Tzu’s work in very short detail. His opinions are explained in maybe three sentences and are mentioned very systematically (numbered). The writers go over it point by point, probably mentioning Sun Tzu’s core sentence of what would normally be a whole paragraph in his original writings. Since the site you posted, fable, my findings and the pocket I received, go over Sun Tzu’s points very slightly, I started to doubt if it truly was a book that he wrote. I’m not really expecting it to be a novel, but certainly to be a book containing at least more than 200 pages.

[Skuld]

Here is ther version I have. I picked it up in a book store while on a trip to Puerto Rico. I needed a book to read on the plane ride back and it was one of the few that was in English. It has both the straight translation and translation with discussion. It's a good buy.

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytze When I wrote my post, I didn’t look at your link yet, no. After checking your link out, however, it seems that the book contains a lot of material (at least 300 pages).

If you compare the book Vicsun brought up (you can read the first few pages on Amazon) with the online 1910 translation you asked about, you'll find that it's the same work, with minute variations paragraph-by-paragraph. The new one you can buy, and it's certainly more readable, and a better translation in the sense that it tries to meet the reader halfway, rather than simply translating the text. But the two are identical. Just do a comparison. Don't expect a lengthy tome, unless you want commentary. The book simply isn't large: it's a philosophical treatise, like I said. If you're expecting a really meaty tome, Sytze, you're going to be disappointed.

As for the 300 pages part: yeah, the Amazon-listed work would be longer, since it also contains another book, Sun Pin's Military Methods.

[Ekental]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytze I came across this in my search as well. "Translated from the Chinese with Introduction and Critical Notes BY LIONEL GILES, M.A." But this is edited and opinionated, too. Didn't Sun Tzu write his own book, but instead made some raw paper drafts or something? I mean, he made a book right? Is there really no literal translated version? Edit: I've been reading a bit of the text in fable's link and, combined with other searches, I have to wonder if Sun Tzu really wrote a whole book. I mean, all I come across are (translated) versions which explain Sun Tzu's writing very systematically. It's not really a story, but instead more a list of opinions and thoughts.

Sun Tzus sort of just mused and wrote stuff down and later slapped it all together...
If you want a literal translation its not gonna make much sense. When I read a bit of it in chinese then looked at the English version there are some discrepencies when the editors just didn't know how to translate a phrase and just goofed it...

[Sytze]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekental Sun Tzus sort of just mused and wrote stuff down and later slapped it all together... If you want a literal translation its not gonna make much sense. When I read a bit of it in chinese then looked at the English version there are some discrepencies when the editors just didn't know how to translate a phrase and just goofed it...

That's what I gathered from different sites, including fable's one, as well. The book Vicsun pointed me to, however, seems like the one which is the most 'story-like', or so to speak. Just like fable said, so I think I'll go with that one.

Thank you all for the help, though. I'm looking forward to read the book. Along with 'The White Company' that I just ordered.