Spanish political upset

[Sojourner]

Originally posted by Morlock
Zapatero would not have won if not for the bombings last week.

And the government's perceived mismanagement of the situation.

[Morlock]

Originally posted by Sojourner
And the government's perceived mismanagement of the situation.

Which would not have happened if the situation had not occured. Whether the government should've been voted out is besides the point.
These bombings changed the election results.

[Sojourner]

And?

[RandomThug]

Terrorism's goal is being achieved, you bending to the thought of future threat.

[Sojourner]

Or perhaps they simply decided it was better to spend their resources on actually dealing with the terrorists.

[fable]

Originally posted by RandomThug
Terrorism's goal is being achieved, you bending to the thought of future threat.

I don't think anybody on the national or international front has even remotely suggested that the goal of this kind of terrorist was to oust the Conservative Party and bring in the Socialists. The goal of the terrorists is what it has always been: to violently express complete disatisfaction with the socio-political status quo in their home nations. That's it. To even think that Al Qa'idah would have a strategic agenda completely misses the point of every single one of their previous actions. They're not bullies. They're nihilists.

[Sojourner]

Well, Fable, I think we're seeing the effect of years of the Bush administration propaganda.

[Gilgalen]

Oh my. Rush Limbaugh would be proud of some of the things said here. So much knee jerk conservatism, including my favorite: “if you don’t vote conservative, the terrorists have won!”

The Spanish backed a ‘war on terror’ and yet it’s pretty clear that it was ineffective. The ruling conservative party also jumped to convenient conclusions and blamed the ETA before looking at the evidence, which rightfully angered many people. There were no demand to vote one way or another associated with the bombing, it was just hate and violence, and it still hasn’t been proven that it’s Al Qaeda.

Democratic elections took place, and the people voted. I suppose democracy isn’t enough – it has to be conservative democracy now? Sure, the bombings affected people’s feelings, but to call each individual voter a coward is beyond rude. I consider it a vote of no-confidence. One could just as easily say that the conservatives enabled terrorism by buying into an ineffectual ‘war on terror.’

[Coot]

Originally posted by Gilgalen
Sure, the bombings affected people’s feelings, but to call each individual voter a coward is beyond rude. I consider it a vote of no-confidence.

As far as I understand, it wasn't so much fear or cowardice that made people who would've voted Partido Popular vote for the socialists. It was out of anger towards the Partido Popular. Many people figured Aznar had been withhelding information about the investigations about the attacks.
That's probably true - at one point the Spanish secret service found out that the bombers were probably Al Qa'ida and not ETA. It's been said that Aznar didn't want that information coming out before the elections because he figured his party would lose votes because of that; after all, the socialists wouldn't have send soldiers to Iraq. Aznar did, which is why Al Qa'ida did what they did.

[fable]

According to the BBC, the Spanish Police have made a breakthrough in the case. Warrants have been issued for five Morrocans that are at large, and a sixth is in custody. They are all described as "suspects."

[Gilgalen]

Maybe if you vow to stamp out terrorism and make a unilateral decision to invade and occupy not one but two countries in effort to do so, you shouldn’t be surprised that the public gets miffed when they find out that a) you willingly embraced sketchy information before taking action, and b) due to ‘a’ and a whole bunch of other reasons you have been wholly ineffective.

Spain won’t be the last country to change its course. Expect Italy to be next. Naturally Spain and Italy will be joining France, Germany, and Russia. Maybe in about 5 years the US will be able to repair its relationship with European allies.

[RandomThug]

The Spanish backed a ‘war on terror’ and yet it’s pretty clear that it was ineffective.

I know many who would argue that case to death. America and its allies have been effective in our efforts. I will list some things but i do believe in do time fable will correct me, willingly I accept this because he is normaly right. Afghanastan was full of terrorist camps and Al queada. Well According to what I hear and read and its not all convservative American media we've crippled at least the high levels of leadership in that terrorist group. I know we have captured lots of weapon cache's that would be used for terror (my friend in the Air Force was on duty in Afghanastan and they found, amung many others, a cave full of weaponary ((Missles and junk I cant remember). We have ousted a dictator, we can debate why all day but no one can deny we removed an evil man from a place of power he was abusing.

Spain, Poland, Britain and our other allies all have helped and we have achieved. If you think the bombing of spain recently is something of proof of this not working I'd argue the ETA has been at this for years and well you cant stomp out fanatics like this over night, in a year or even five.

@Fable my intentions are not to declare the terrorists goals have been achieved as in political or actuall tactical manuevers. My belief is any change of your daily life because of fear of something that might happen for instance me moving because i think North Korea might nuke LA. Thats terrorists getting thier way.

Oh btw if anyone wants to argue the Iraq war had nothing to do with terrorism, from what I gather, that is wrong. Saddam had no links to the big Al queda but he had ties to other terror groups and he was a terror too.

[Gilgalen]

I know many who would argue that case to death.

Well, when you argue with Americans, you have to be prepared to argue to the death! Ok, ok, I’m mostly kidding. You can put away your six-shooter.

I know we have captured lots of weapon cache's that would be used for terror.

Yes, these were state of the art weapons in the 80’s when the US govt. gave them to the Afgan rebels to use against the Soviets.

If you think the bombing of spain recently is something of proof of this not working…

Well, it certainly isn’t proof that it is working. I think when you make a commitment as massive as the invasion of two countries, it’s fare to expect a certain level of unmitigated success. But I’m just a silly schoolgirl. Don’t take my word for it.

[RandomThug]

Yes, these were state of the art weapons in the 80’s when the US govt. gave them to the Afgan rebels to use against the Soviets.

You can kill thousands with fertalizer. It is not the fight to argue who gave who but to stop those from using them for evil.

And yes it sometimes comes down to arguments to the death with Us Americans and I credit that to our stubberness and your stubberness (Your being everyone else). I think weasel said it best in a thread long ago, let me mis quote him, If there were forums during roman times, everyone would be talking smack about Rome.

Well, it certainly isn’t proof that it is working. I think when you make a commitment as massive as the invasion of two countries, it’s fare to expect a certain level of unmitigated success. But I’m just a silly schoolgirl. Don’t take my word for it.

My only issue with this is well what else are we to do.

[smass]

Well, it certainly isn’t proof that it is working. I think when you make a commitment as massive as the invasion of two countries, it’s fare to expect a certain level of unmitigated success

I thought I read somewhere that the totalitarian regime of Saddam Hussein was overthrown and that he and many of his cohorts have been captured and are awaiting trial. I also understand that the Taliban is no longer running Afganistan. Seems like a decent measure of success - but hey I am just a silly American.... *puts away his six gun*