Smoking During Pregnancy and the Rights of the Foetus

[dragon wench]

The smoking ban thread got me to contemplating an issue I have long wrestled with...

When I see a pregnant woman smoking it makes me very angry because she is subjecting her helpless unborn child to countless toxins. But, I'm extremely wary to go so far as to say that such actions be made illegal...
Why?
Because it leads into another very thorny area.... "the rights of the foetus."

The anti choice movement could very easily use any legislation like this to claim that abortion is indeed murder, since it would be premised on the notion that a foetus has rights and that the utmost be done to protect them.

I am uncompromisingly pro-choice, I believe that abortion should be available on demand. Period.

This puts me into a real philosophical quandry. I partially manage to reconcile the problem by stating that once a woman has committed to carrying a pregnancy to term she is obligated to caring for her child as best as she is able. But that still does not get away from the thorny question of rights. To whom do those rights belong? The mother-to-be who smokes, or her unborn child?

[Locke Da'averan]

personally i despise women who smoke while pregnant. my gf's sister smoked during her pregnancy and i was dumbstruck, but managed to keep my thoughts to myself. it's really not my business..

i too believe that abortion should be available to everyone. IMO foetus is a human after being born... especially rape victims that are denied the possibility to abort is ridiculous if such a thing still exists in the (RCC?)

[Magrus]

Based on my own experiences, it is my firm belief that any parent should stop smoking the instant the realize they are having a baby. Smoking around your children is harmful to their health period, mother or father. Even having a child watch their father or mother smoke will most likely make them want to pick up a cigarette and see what it's all about and start smoking themselves.

As far as the mother-to-be, I just went through this with my friend Kimmy and her being pregnant last year. She tried quitting, tried, but couldn't do so. I didn't know what to say. She cut down to a few puffs altogether a day, maybe two cigarettes overall a week. Still...thats not healthy for the baby.

I think smoking should be illegal and screw the economic consequences. Unborn child or not, people are picking up smoking younger and younger and it should be stopped. I'm all for making it illegal for pregnant women to smoke. If caught, toss them into a facility that will see they are healthy and get them medical help to stop smoking there. Like a little clinic or something.

I mean, lets say you have your average smoker smoking a pack a day right? In NY thats $30-35 a week on the habit. If we round off each month to a 4 week month for simplicity, thats 36 weeks, $30 a week, a non-smoker could save $1080 during her pregnancy for her baby on what the average smoker lights on fire during that time. Double that if dad smokes too. I think the father should be just as responsible as the mother, no doubt about it. So, what could that mother-to-be do with 1080 dollars for her baby? Get a bond and start saving for college? Well, lets say you take that, and toss into some form of savings that allows 6% interest per year. By the time that baby is 16 (17 years from conception lets say) you'd have $2757.90 saved up from those 9 months of not smoking a pack a day. Not a ridiculous amount of money, but still enough to buy a used car for their 16th birthday in exchange for not ruining someones health, right?

Now, health risks. My mother and father say that my mother quit smoking when she was pregnant with my brother and I. That was nice of her, however, they smoked around me when I was little and I now have health problems because of it. I can only imagine the effects that would have on an unborn child. I don't know the exact health risks, and I really don't want to investigate. The thought makes me sick, and I know the risks I've dealt with enough to know that an unborn child shouldn't be subjected to such a thing in any way, shape or form.

Granted, it is an addiction, yes, it's hard to quite. Still, when you are bringing a baby into the world, that child is YOUR responsibility to take care of until it reaches maturity. If you aren't suited to be able to do so, you shouldn't have taken the actions you did to produce the baby in the first place. People who smoke should do their utmost to quit in that situation.

[Dottie]

@DW: I don't think there are any philosophical problem with that stance at all, provided there is a real health hazard for the baby. You don't have to belive that the foetus have rights if you belive that a child who actually is born have the right to be born with a minimum of permanent damage. Whether the damage is caused before the birth or not is not necessarily relevant.

[Locke Da'averan]

Originally Posted by Magrus

Granted, it is an addiction, yes, it's hard to quit.

my father stopped smoking the "cold turkey" style. when my mother was pregnant with their first child(my big sister)he stopped just like that.

i've been tempted to start smoking just to prove everyone that quitting isn't that hard. but it would take so much time to develop a bad nicotine addiction and ruining my health for that would be just stupid. drugs are most likely very difficult to quit on your own. but smoking, sheesh. i'm not judging anyone, it's just my opinion.

ppl say that they don't know what to do with that extra time they used to use for smoking after quitting. so they tend to eat and gain alot of weight or smth like that. why's it so hard to either go for a walk or smth else.

i'm with you mag about making smoking illegal it's so incredibly stupid, words can't reach pinnacle of that thing.. of course all of this is just MO

[Denethorn]

Originally Posted by Locke Da'averan

i've been tempted to start smoking just to prove everyone that quitting isn't that hard

That would be a very stupid thing to do. For months and months I kept telling myself I'm not addicted, can quit whenever, I have the willpower to do it bla bla bla. Then you actually try. I failed. As have *all* of my friends.

Anyway, don't want to get OT here. Smoking when pregnant is a political grey area sure enough. Obviously in a perfect world mothers would have enough concern for their child to stop smoking.

But if you were to prevent pregnant women from smoking how much further would you then have to go? Prevent a soon-to-be mother from drinking alcohol? From eating excessively, or eating foods with saturated fats? There are numerous modern activities that risk the well being of an unborn child.

At the end of the day the lifestyle during pregnancy is down to the mother. We have to hope in the innate good within each human, and the maternal instinct that what she decided to do is what is best for the phoetus. Afterall, a mother knows best and we should respect that.

[Locke Da'averan]

Originally Posted by Denethorn

That would be a very stupid thing to do. For months and months I kept telling myself I'm not addicted, can quit whenever, I have the willpower to do it bla bla bla. Then you actually try. I failed. As have *all* of my friends.

Anyway, don't want to get OT here. It is a grey area sure enough. But if you were to prevent pregnant women from smoking how much further would you then have to go? Prevent a soon-to-be mother from drinking alcohol? From eating excessively, or eating foods with saturated fats? There are numerous modern activities that risk the well being of an unborn child.

well alcohol consuming should be obvious hazard to a baby as it is. well everything one does is basically dangerous to the baby, driving a car, walking in the street, going to the store etc. smoking/drinking are just multiplyers to the risk of losing/causing harm to the child. i'm pretty extremist in the matter but IMO i don't understand smoking/drinking while pregnant, easy for me to say since i'm male but still..

yes it would be stupid indeed. but it all is about the person. denying your addiction will do that to you IMO. some can do it, others can't. dunno if it's about character or genes or what but that's just how it is. i know ppl/friends who've fallen back to smoking. but it's one of those"can't say unless tried" things as i mentioned in your smoke thread..

[dragon wench]

Originally Posted by Denethorn

Anyway, don't want to get OT here. Smoking when pregnant is a political grey area sure enough. Obviously in a perfect world mothers would have enough concern for their child to stop smoking.

But if you were to prevent pregnant women from smoking how much further would you then have to go? Prevent a soon-to-be mother from drinking alcohol? From eating excessively, or eating foods with saturated fats? There are numerous modern activities that risk the well being of an unborn child.

At the end of the day the lifestyle during pregnancy is down to the mother. We have to hope in the innate good within each human, and the maternal instinct that what she decided to do is what is best for the phoetus. Afterall, a mother knows best and we should respect that.

Indeed... it is a slippery slope and a minefield. How do we define what is hazardous to the foetus? Even in clearcut cases, such as with smoking, there still remains the problem of rights.... and the potential implications in any argument to restrict or outlaw abortion.

Regarding mothers ... Sadly, they do not always know best.... But is it truly right or ethical to police them? That is not unlike certain dark periods in history where the enforced sterilisation of individuals deemed "unfit for parenting," ("eugenics") was both legal and encouraged....


@Dottie,
I don't disagree. I suspect, though, that in Sweden the view towards abortion is far more enlightened than is generally the case in North America. Over here we have a very active, vocal, zealous, and well-funded anti-choice movement that will often stop at nothing in an attempt to achieve its goals. Physicians who carry out abortions have actually been murdered...

Hence, my concern with the whole question.

[Magrus]

Regarding mothers ... Sadly, they do not always know best

Heh, my friend just got a call saying that an old friend of hers needed to go to the hospital because her boyfriend was beating her. That one's a story. Just had twins who were born Dec. 3, and is now pregnant again. Wants to have the baby killed because she was impregnated by a black man. That one blows my mind. She smokes, cigarettes, pot, crack, etc. Idiot woman. Her twin sons were taken away and her mother now is taking care of them. No, mothers don't always know best. Now my friend rushed off with her daughter to help this moron get to the hospital from this abusive guy. Hopefully she's smart and leaves in the event the guy comes out of the house.

The problem is, people DON'T always know what's right. Also, a lot of people don't care. If you have a woman who smokes and says "I don't have cancer, that's a load of crap, it won't hurt you" and then gets pregnant and keeps smoking, she's harming her unborn child through ignorance and denial. What do you do in that situation?

I don't appreciate excessive laws and people trying to control me either, but that's ME. I happen to be the ONLY one involved with MY activities. I don't have children of my own. I don't drink or smoke or what not when I'm watching my friends daughter. I don't bring her around people that smoke, and I carry her out of the room if people enter the room we are in if they are smoking.

[VonDondu]

Originally Posted by dragon wench

The smoking ban thread got me to contemplating an issue I have long wrestled with...

When I see a pregnant woman smoking it makes me very angry because she is subjecting her helpless unborn child to countless toxins. But, I'm extremely wary to go so far as to say that such actions be made illegal...
Why?
Because it leads into another very thorny area.... "the rights of the foetus."

The anti choice movement could very easily use any legislation like this to claim that abortion is indeed murder, since it would be premised on the notion that a foetus has rights and that the utmost be done to protect them.

I am uncompromisingly pro-choice, I believe that abortion should be available on demand. Period.

This puts me into a real philosophical quandry...

In other words, you are in a philosophical quandary because you're afraid of a slippery slope argument: if we say that a fetus is entitled to any protection at all, then the anti-choice people will be able to outlaw abortion. (Personally, I can't bring myself to call most anti-choice people "pro-life" since they support the bombing of abortion clinics and wars for oil, but that's neither here nor there.) Well, for an easy way out of your dilemma, just compare fetuses to animals. Animals don't have recognizable, er, "human" rights, but it's still illegal to neglect them or to be cruel to them. It's illegal for people to kill other people's pets, but that's only because it amounts to destruction of "property", not because animals have any sort of right to life. A pet owner or rancher can kill any animal he owns at will ("varmints" too), as long he's not cruel about it (although admittedly, it's a fine line sometimes that is resolved by "standard practices and operating procedures"). If we declare that exposing unborn children to harmful toxins is cruel and/or negligent, that doesn't automatically give unborn children the right to life. If anti-choice people insist that it does, then tell them that they need to pass laws outlawing the killing of all animals, as well, if anti-cruelty laws confer a right to life to any living thing they apply to. That won't shut them up, of course (I can't think of anything that will), but maybe it will put the dilemma in their lap instead of yours.

[Dottie]

@DW: I'm afraid I don't see the problem. If you agree that there is no conflict then everything is fine except that there is a strong movement against abortion in you area, and I'm afraid we can't help you much with that...

Originally Posted by dragon wench

Regarding mothers ... Sadly, they do not always know best.... But is it truly right or ethical to police them? That is not unlike certain dark periods in history where the enforced sterilisation of individuals deemed "unfit for parenting," ("eugenics") was both legal and encouraged....

I definatly think that you should police them, Imo there is a huge difference between sterilisation based on guesses regarding parenting and taking away a child from someone who have already demonstrated that she/he can not care properly for it.

I think children should be parents responsibility, not parents property.

[Xanidu]

i personally think that smoking should not be done all together. why would you want to poison yourself like that is beyond me. i also personally think that smoking makes a woman less attractive. it just takes away from their natural beauty, but if a woman is going to smoke then they should definatly STOP if they find out they are pregnant and immediatly. I hear many parents and adults say that they wish they had never started smoking but that they cant quit. If a mother smokes during her pregnancy then the child is more likey to smoke later in his or her life.

[Denethorn]

Originally Posted by Dottie

I think children should be parents responsibility, not parents property.

What about the phoetus? While it is part of a woman's body? Is that property or responsibility?

This is where the problem comes into play... as property a woman should be allowed "to do away" with a phoetus (i.e. abort the pregnancy). But if the phoetus were treated independantly, which demanded a responsible mother carrying it, whom therefor shouldn't smoke - is it not then entitled to life?

This is what makes the issue so difficult.

For the record I am pro-abortion. However it I think more a necessary evil than a woman's "right". In my utopia there would be no abortion. But illegal or legal, it will always happen. And we might aswell provide safe and clean clinics to do the job properly.

[Dottie]

@Denethorn: But the question as i understood it wasn't about abortion but about the compatibility of being pro abortion and against smoking parents. If you don't see the foetus as a human, wich I belive neither me nor DW does then there is no problem.

[Ned Flanders]

DW,

Smoking during pregnancy, I suppose, has been shown to be a bad thing. My mother smoked through both mine and my sister's pregnancy. I don't think either of us are any worse for wear (however, my sister is a giant 4'10" but my mother is only 5 feet tall so it's all relative - apologies for ignoring the metric system).

From a personal perspective, if I ever find out I'm going to be a father, I think that would be the last day I would smoke (and I'm not even carrying the child) with the missus following suit.

Based on my own experiences, it is my firm belief that any parent should stop smoking the instant the realize they are having a baby. Smoking around your children is harmful to their health period, mother or father. Even having a child watch their father or mother smoke will most likely make them want to pick up a cigarette and see what it's all about and start smoking themselves.

Interesting Magrus, my life was just the opposite. while both my parents smoked heavily during my childhood, I hated it and was vocal about it constantly. I never had any urge to smoke until I left for college. I just started without ever thinking about it.