School massacre in Finland

[imawindowlickr]

Gun control? Really? Wow. I'm no redneck. Charlton Heston can KMA. But gun control? Bad guys will always acquire bad things. They are bad guys cause they operate outside of the law. I don't think anyone planning or ready to commit an armed crime is hesitating because they have to go through the legal channels to obtain a firearm. Gun control doesn't slow down a bad guy wanting to do bad things.

So how is that one good thing?

[Loki[D.d.G]]

Gun control? Really? Wow. I'm no redneck. Charlton Heston can KMA. But gun control? Bad guys will always acquire bad things. They are bad guys cause they operate outside of the law. I don't think anyone planning or ready to commit an armed crime is hesitating because they have to go through the legal channels to obtain a firearm. Gun control doesn't slow down a bad guy wanting to do bad things.

So how is that one good thing?

If some lunatics are deprived of owning guns, then some of this instances can be averted. It would be much better than allowing every Tom, Dick and Harry to just purchase a deadly weapon without the requisite legal documents.

Someone who really wants to kill others might go all out to obtain his gun. But there are others who just wouldn't bother and maybe take out thier anger on themselves instead. Wishful thinking, I know

[C Elegans]

Sorry for not being able to comment on this earlier.
My condolences to all the victims and their families. What a horrible tragedy this incidents are. And yes, in my opinion equally tragic to all other meaningless killings of innocent people.

Originally Posted by Kipi

Now, what makes me worried is that media has already found out that the guy responsible for the shooting did play FPS games, especially Battle Field 2, and was playing even couple of hours before the incident. And the media hasn't even tried to cover it, but has been spreading around as like they were trying to move some of the blame to gaming industry.

What do you think of this?

Honestly I think that the issue of how this reflects on the computer game industry, is the least important problem. The gaming industry will survive and make their money regardless of a temporary media debate regarding the potential negative influence of violent games. And seriously, there is evidence that consumption of violent media has an influence on people's behaviour, as shown in scientific studies of the topic. This of course does not mean that "violent media creates violent acts", but it does mean that violent and aggressive people can get reinforcement and inspiration from violent media.

Swedish media has however not focused on computer games, but on other factors. Mainly two angels are discussed, the "it could happen here, what should we do about it"-angle wish interviews with psychologists and forensic experts, and partly the problem that internet communities provide like-minded people, also disturbed ones, with reinforcement and admiration for their devious ideas (like in this case, the eco-fascistic narcissism that is reported to have influenced Auvinen's perception of the world and other people). This problem is however not specific for school shootings, but has been discussed in relation to self-destructive acts such as suicide-pacts and extreme risk taking behaviour that cause people to die in accidents, and also in relation "bumfights" and other violent acts that are that uploaded to file sharing sites, thus contributing to additional abuse of the victim.

Originally Posted by Kipi

So far this is what is know about the backgrounds of the killer:

• He was politically radical. Even though his opinion and side changed almost weekly, it was always the most radical side
• He had stated that the massacre will be political terrorism act
• He wanted to get his name to some well known international list of most famous mass murderers
• He thought he was equal to god, and everyone not suited to his believes and visions of the world should die
• He used medicines for mental problems, but quited using those couple of days before the incident
• He wasn't one of those who like to hang out with others, but instead liked to be alone more

This is only short list, most of the things known sums up the ideology of his and hov he visioned the world.

Originally Posted by Moonbiter

1. He was not a gun nut. He was a member of an ordinary shooting club with strict rules, and bought a light handgun when he was allowed by law and the the club to do so.
2. He was a good student.
3. He was a loner, but was not picked upon or abused by his classmates. In fact he had a pretty girlfriend who recently broke up with him, and a couple of close male friends.
4. He had no history of violence or erratic behaviour. The statements made about him not taking his meds is completely new to me, and the medias I read.
5. He was obviously inspired by Columbine and Virginia Tech. Already experts and police are calling him a "copycat" based on the evidence uncovered.
6. Misery loves Company. Though I am a staunch supporter of strict gun control, there is no way to prevent this thing from happening. Especially not when it's slowly turning into a sick "trend" based on input and hyperbole.

Both of your lists fits relatively well with the known risk factors which I posted in the Virginia thread previously:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/sp...-87134-p3.html

Is anything known about Auvinen's upbringing and social life apart from his activities in internet communities? What about his psychiatric disorder, what kind of problems did he get medication for and how long was his history of disorder?

Originally Posted by Moonbiter

We are simply not prepared for this kind of thing, as opposed to countries where it's "normal." I can't imagine what it must be like being a police officer on duty in a small burg in Finland and getting the message "Shots fired at the local school, people down." Up here where I live they would probably have to call the Ministry of Education for a pow-wow, then clear it with the "mothers against police in schools" and a federal judge who might give the police the "go" to arm themselves, before any action was taken. Even as I write this, so called "experts" are going at it in the media: "Naaaaahhhh, this can't happen here! We're a happy social-democratic country. Bad things happen to other people. Our kids are all happy-happy-joy-joy!"

Is this how Norwegian media have pictured the thing? It's a bit different from Swedish media, then. Already after the Virginia school shootings, Swedish forensic experts were all over the press talking about that this could happen here, and most likely will. Although it's more difficult to kill a large amount of people here due to different weapon culture and stricter gun control that makes it more difficult to get a gun, it is still possible to get a gun and furthermore, you can attack people with other weapons although the death toll will likely be smaller. The massacre in Finland added to the media debate that it can, and most likely will, happen here as well. The important issue is, how do we prevent it?

[Maharlika]

... I don't think stricter gun laws and metal detectors are the keys to the solution of this type of a problem.

The school should provide institutionalized supportive structures that would prevent or even minimize students of EVEN JUST THINKING ABOUT SERIOUSLY USING VIOLENCE AS AN OPTION to their problems.

Things like concerted effort to prevent even the existence of bullying... strong guidance counseling system (hey, you need NOT be in trouble just to talk to the guidance counselors )... a culture of kindness and respect at school... etc., would significantly help in averting such an idea of school violence from even taken as an alternative for students to address their problems.

There's NO SUCH THING as a profile of a school shooter. So stereotypes such as being gamers, goths,etc. are actually unsubstantiated and are not reliable.

[edit] Here is my post from the link provided by CE in her above post.

[C Elegans]

Originally Posted by Curry

Pfft. Thousands of kids die every day around the world, why cry when a few Europeans get shot?

Why not cry equally much for all meaningless deaths of innocent people? I know a guy living just south of Sahara who's teenage daughter died of tuberculosis (one of the major causes of death in this region) because they couldn't afford the 20 Euro that the medicine that would have cured her, costed. Who is to blame for this? In a sense, all of us are to blame for this indirectly, because we accept to vote for those politicians who don't work for strengthening of the economies in the world's poorest countries and for introducing some type of global support sharing the cost for medicines.

Of course this father and mother cried as much as the parents of the Finnish youths. And of course it is equally unacceptable, at least in my view, but it's much easier to prevent school shootings than to resolve the world's financial unfairness.

[C Elegans]

Originally Posted by Maharlika

... I don't think stricter gun laws and metal detectors are the keys to the solution of this type of a problem.

The school should provide institutionalized supportive structures that would prevent or even minimize students of EVEN JUST THINKING ABOUT SERIOUSLY USING VIOLENCE AS AN OPTION to their problems.

Things like concerted effort to prevent even the existence of bullying... strong guidance counseling system (hey, you need NOT be in trouble just to talk to the guidance counselors )... a culture of kindness and respect at school... etc., would significantly help in averting such an idea of school violence from even taken as an alternative for students to address their problems.

There's NO SUCH THING as a profile of a school shooter. So stereotypes such as being gamers, goths, etc. are actually unsubstantiated and are not reliable.

There's no such thing as a profile of anything, but there are risk factors. Known factors that will increase the risk for individuals vulnerable to these kind of disorders, just as smoking is a known risk factor for lung cancer for certain individuals, and cannabis is a risk factor for development of psychosis disease for certain individuals.

Known risk factors include a lot of things that are possible to influence at least partly, such as social competence, coping style, depression, tendency to respond with aggression, erranous self-view blaming others for misfortunes etc.

Know protective factors include positive social relationships and committment and successful acheivements in school.

Provided with a perfectly working social protection network including all relevant levels in society (family, friends, school, counselling, psychiatric care etc) we could probably never stop 100% of these acts but surely 99% or even 99.9%.

[Maharlika]

Originally Posted by C Elegans

There's no such thing as a profile of anything, but there are risk factors. Known factors that will increase the risk for individuals vulnerable to these kind of disorders, just as smoking is a known risk factor for lung cancer for certain individuals, and cannabis is a risk factor for development of psychosis disease for certain individuals.

Known risk factors include a lot of things that are possible to influence at least partly, such as social competence, coping style, depression, tendency to respond with aggression, erranous self-view blaming others for misfortunes etc.

Know protective factors include positive social relationships and committment and successful acheivements in school.

Provided with a perfectly working social protection network including all relevant levels in society (family, friends, school, counselling, psychiatric care etc) we could probably never stop 100% of these acts but surely 99% or even 99.9%.

Indeed. It is how these risk factors are present in each individual is what is needed to be analyzed, hence a need for Threat Assessments in school. We got gun enthusiasts and gamers in our school yet they were not classified as "high-risk." Now, if there are disturbing signs that these risk factors are pointing to that "danger" direction, then the Threat Assessment should be elevated to a Threat Investigation involving law enforcement agencies, especially if there are evidences that a doable and detailed plan coupled with verifiable procurement of dangerous weapons/explosives are present.

Here is another post of mine which complements what CE is trying to point out.

[Kipi]

Sorry, can't answer to all points thrown out here since my last visit, as I have only 5 minutes remaining of my internet time (Net Coffee place )

Originally Posted by C Elegans

Honestly I think that the issue of how this reflects on the computer game industry, is the least important problem. The gaming industry will survive and make their money regardless of a temporary media debate regarding the potential negative influence of violent games. And seriously, there is evidence that consumption of violent media has an influence on people's behaviour, as shown in scientific studies of the topic. This of course does not mean that "violent media creates violent acts", but it does mean that violent and aggressive people can get reinforcement and inspiration from violent media.

You are right, and I mostly used it to begin some discussion here (we are gaming community, after all). Also, gaming and movies and violent in media has got so big attention in this case here, so at times it seems that to media it's one of the most important problems...

Both of your lists fits relatively well with the known risk factors which I posted in the Virginia thread previously:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/sp...-87134-p3.html

Is anything known about Auvinen's upbringing and social life apart from his activities in internet communities? What about his psychiatric disorder, what kind of problems did he get medication for and how long was his history of disorder?

I've seen it mentioned somewhere couple of days back, I'll look for it and post it later. And thanks for the link.

Is this how Norwegian media have pictured the thing? It's a bit different from Swedish media, then. Already after the Virginia school shootings, Swedish forensic experts were all over the press talking about that this could happen here, and most likely will. Although it's more difficult to kill a large amount of people here due to different weapon culture and stricter gun control that makes it more difficult to get a gun, it is still possible to get a gun and furthermore, you can attack people with other weapons although the death toll will likely be smaller. The massacre in Finland added to the media debate that it can, and most likely will, happen here as well. The important issue is, how do we prevent it?

They weren't the only ones. There has been couple of intervieves done here, where for example one ex-teachter, now a book writer told that she has been expecting this to happen last 15 years. She wasn't able to say when it happens, but that it does happen.


Okay, time running out, I'll return back on topic later,

[Faberge]

May I ask how would you make the gun restriction more strict?

In order to purchase a fire-arm or a part of a fire-arm in Finland, it is required that you have first received a written permission from the local borough’s or your place of residence’s local police department. In order to purchase an especially dangerous fire-arm you are required to have received a written permission from the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

And in order to receive this permission you must first fill an application, and return it to the local police department personally. Though there are some exceptions to this rule.

If you have received a permission to purchase a gun, the permission will grant you the right to purchase a gun for a maximum time of six months, although for a fire-arm collector the maximum time limit to purchase a gun is one year . With this permission you will also receive a right to purchase ammunition, and keep in your possession a fire-arm, or a part of a fire-arm temporarily.

If a fire-arm is not purchased in the set time limit, it must be returned to the closest police department within 30 days.

If a fire-arm is purchased, there is a time limit of 30 days in which you must request a permission to keep the gun in your possession. And in order to receive this permission you must present the written permission to purchase a fire-arm and the fire-arm itself, or the part of a fire-arm to the police department of your local borough or place of residence. The police department can also cancel your right to have a fire-arm in your possession.

Permission to have the fire-arm in your possession is usually given for the time being, unless for a special reason the permission has been given for a term.

Permission to purchase a fire-arm can be granted to a person of the age of 18-years whose state of health and behaviour are such that a fire-arm can be trusted in his possession. Though a person as young as 15-years can be permitted to purchase a gun if the person meets the other requirements and has a permission from his or hers guardians.

Also the fire-arm must be fitting to the purpose it was purchased. Thus based on the size of clip, it’s calibre, and/or by other properties, the fire-arm must not have exceedingly large firepower or efficiency when considering the purpose of which the fire-arm is to be purchased.

These are the agreeable uses for fire-arms in Finland:

1) Hunting, as it is stated in the hunting legislation
2) Possession of a firearm for use of sport, or a hobby
3) Work, where possession of a gun is necessary
4) An act, or a similar performance
5) Having the fire-arm on display in museums or at personal collections
6) Keeping the gun as memorial item
7) Signalling, such as firing the starting signal in athletic games

Plus the fire-arm must be stored out of hands in a locked space, or it must be dismantled and the pieces must be stored in at least two separate locations.

Anyone can freely purchase an airgun in Finland.


It is most unfortunate that such cases as what happened in Jokela happen in our modern world, and my condolences to the victims, their families and anyone who has went through such traumatizing situation.

[prof. Moriarty]

Originally Posted by imawindowlickr

Gun control? Really? Wow. I'm no redneck. Charlton Heston can KMA. But gun control? Bad guys will always acquire bad things. They are bad guys cause they operate outside of the law. I don't think anyone planning or ready to commit an armed crime is hesitating because they have to go through the legal channels to obtain a firearm. Gun control doesn't slow down a bad guy wanting to do bad things.

So how is that one good thing?

You are right insomuch that it is impossible to stop evil people from acquiring guns. I have never tried to even pretend that so would be the case. However there is two other points worth considering.
1: Just because it is impossible to succeed completely doesn't mean that it is not worth doing. If we strive for the impossible at least we'll reach as far as we possibly can.
2 (and most important): Strict gun control is one of several important factors in building a society where this kind of tragedies will not need to occur TO BEGIN WITH. It is not simply "let's take the matches away from the lunatic" but a preventive measure of building a safe and harmonic society. A society where everyone, even the relative stranger next door, may own a revolver and live ammunition will NOT be a society where one can feel safe from harm. It is simply quite true that: "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffing."
I mean no offense to my american brothers and sisters, but from my point of view there is clearly a reason why most of these hideous tragedies has occured in the United States.

I'm sorry if I'm rambling. I've gotten a cold that has transformed my brainmatter to overcooked macaronis.

Finlands sak är vår.
P

[Loki[D.d.G]]

2) Possession of a firearm for use of sport, or a hobby

This is pretty vague. Hobbies and sports are usually hard to define. Given a determined enough person, he could exploit the potential loopholes in this to obtain his weapon. However, this only covers weapons purchased through legal channels. How about the black market?

There's no controlling that.

[imawindowlickr]

Yeah haven't dedicated time to quote. Sorry. So gun control has it's positive aspects, but at what point does keeping firearms from the bad guys hinder the people who have the right to own. At what point do you just enable more people to be victims? Sorry 48 hour of work kinds wokkys the gray matter. I do however agree with you. Trying is better than not.

[prof. Moriarty]

Originally Posted by imawindowlickr

Yeah haven't dedicated time to quote. Sorry. So gun control has it's positive aspects, but at what point does keeping firearms from the bad guys hinder the people who have the right to own. At what point do you just enable more people to be victims? Sorry 48 hour of work kinds wokkys the gray matter. I do however agree with you. Trying is better than not.

Well, first there's the question of how to define "have the right to own" - I do NOT think that anyone should have the right to own a gun just because he/she wants to or "to defend oneself", that is the law enforcment-agencies work and, as I have said, I think that way of thinking only increases the insecurity of the society and therefore the violence.
Military and police should, obviously, be allowed guns at work but when they're not at work they should be considered civilians.
Who should be considered allowed to own guns? I can only think of two groups right now (but there may be more): Those who train and compete in marksmanship (sadly, the finnish shooter seemed to have been one but I will adress that momentarily) and hunters.
In both those cases there is obviously (tradgedly so) a great need of control. All persons in both these groups should be tested to see if they are to be trusted with guns and from time to time both them and their guns should be checked up on. Not necessarily annualy but at least every third year or something. I know that it would cost a lot of money (more so in US than in Sweden) but can ANYONE truly believe that there is a pricetag on a human life?

If anyone from these groups are reading this. I am one of you. I have a hunters license, my father has been taking along hunting since I was 7 and I love the feeling of the cold october woods early in the morning. But there is need for greater control if we are to continue what we do. Responsiblity.

Finlands sak är vår
P

[Maharlika]

May I remind everyone that in as much as the recent conversation in this thread is interesting and won't constitute as your proverbial spam posts, please allow the thread to continue its course - that of school shootings or violence in school.

I believe that there are still threads where the topic on gun control is being discussed. Kindly use the search engine. I'm sure you will find it there and take your conversation to that particular thread.

Thank you!

-- Maharlika --
SYM Moderator

[prof. Moriarty]

I will respectfully abide by the will of the council... I mean the moderators. But I would also like to respectfully add that the matter of gun control is very much related to the school shootings.
If one does not agree with my thesis, presented above, very well. There can at least be no doubt that the finnish goverment have taken an interest in stricter gun control BECAUSE of the shooting. Therefore it is not precisely OT, although perhaps not exactly as on topic as some other parts either.
As I have said. I will henceforth follow the moderators choice.

Deus Vult!
P