Opinions wanted

[Magrus]

I had this thought come to me a few times over the past month or two, and again today. Then I read something regarding it on a thread and I just got curious as to opinions here.

I personally, refuse a lot of measures guys use to pick up women. Most guys I know attempt to buy themself a date for the night, regardless of whether it's drinks at a bar, or a fancy dinner. I find that just degrading IMHO, if you can't get the girl to like you without doing all of that what makes it different than just handing her cash to go out with you? Why not just be yourself, I mean eventually the person will find out how you really are. Why not save yourself the effort and money and just be you and if it works great, if not well, you can go get drunk with the money you saved and forget it.

Another one, is the "well, I guess I'll just have to get her drunk" deal. Why? My friends keep asking my opinion on how to score with their cute friends, and this is what they come up with. Personally, I won't do anything with a drunk girl unless we're dating or I know things wouldn't be any different if she was sober. Getting your friend drunk to have your way with her, thats a good way to ruin a friendship. I've never gotten that mentality, it just stuns me how my friends think of that as a good idea. In one sentance, they swear they value the girls friendship, and how they really just want to get her drunk and have their way with them. It just boggles the mind. Maybe I'm more strange than I thought or something....

Another one, the "you owe me" thing. I have a lot of friends that "owe me". More than a handful would be dead if I hadn't have stepped in to help them. Does that mean I'm expecting something beyond the friendship? No. However, a lot of people I've noticed seem to think that the little favors they've done for others means they can claim that for things from their other friends. Not just guys either, that one seems to span a lot of things. What gets me though, is when guys try to take advantage of my female friends with this. A guy randomly offers to help fix a car, or move furniture and suddenly thinks he's getting into my friends bed for it.

So, I'm curious, any opinions on the why behind any of those? Care to share how you feel about them as well, or would I happen to be alone in being bothered with this?

[C Elegans]

@Magrus: To me it seems really strange that you think you are strange. Nobody I know would disagree with the attitudes you have expressed here.

My opinions:

1. Buying a date. Is it ok to buy a prostitute? If not, it should not be ok to buy a date either. Firstly, you will get a date who takes you for the money/drinks/gifts/dinner at exclusive resturant, and not who you are. Second, you will get a very specific selection of people for dates, namely those who enjoy getting bought with money/drinks/dinners etc.

2. When a person is drunk, that person has a lowered sense of judgement lowered impulse control. Being drunk can make people do things they regret, things they would not have choosen to do otherwise. So why have sex with somebody who is drunk, unless like Magrus says, you already have a relationship with that person and know each other well? Sex is something you should engage in because you want it, and when people are drunk they often don't know what they want and not. So it's similar to the situation above - if you can't get the person to have sex with you unless you buy it or get the person drunk, what is it worth then?
Besides, taking sexual advantage of someone who is so drugged so they cannot say yes or no or defend themselves, is sexual abuse or even rape depending on situation.

3. The idea of "you owe me", is that human relationships are trading contracts, and that acts you do to each others are wares that you trade with. It's buying and selling, being nice is an investment, doing something for somebody else is a cost that you expect to be paid back for.

[Macleod1701]

It's a very sexist attitude in society that says that when two people 'date' the bloke should pay, if you go halves then not only does it save money while still having a good time but encourages you to get to know more about them, if you suggest splitting a cheque and they say no, then you know that the girl/bloke is only with you to have things bought for them.
Although saying that I think the first meal me n the missus went out for all those years ago I made her pay.

[C Elegans]

I agree with Macleod that the whole idea that the man should pay is totally sexist and in most part of the world also totally outdated. I recently read an article about economics in Saudi Arabia, and it turns out that women have more finacial resources than men. This I didn't expect from such an women-opressive society, but it turns out the pattern is the same in several of the countries in the same region.

In Western culture, females still earn less money than males at group level, but differences are small and highly age related. Housewifes don't exist anymore. I think either you split, or the person who earns the most pays.

So for instance, if I asked Giles out, I know he is still in school so obviously I would pay. If I asked Xandax out, I think we should split since we both have full time jobs.

[Rob-hin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Elegans 1. Buying a date. Is it ok to buy a prostitute? If not, it should not be ok to buy a date either.

That seems a bit harsh.
If I'm buying a girl a drink and I happen to like that girl, I would not compare this to going to a prostitute to get some. Normally, a girl will even offer you a drink back later. That's what I count on anyway. That's the normal way to behave.

Feeding her booze to get her drunk is another story though. But let's not be over sensitive. She's there herself and she can simply say no. Accepting the drink and knowing that the guy likes her (wether or not she does something with him) is simply using him as he (tries) to use her.

And don't forget, women do it too. hey just have other methodes. Many girls use men to get free drinks and do this intencionally.

I don't think the men or women are the victems here. Using another goes back and forth. I'm not saying that I'm a part of this, but it does happen.

[C Elegans]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-hin That seems a bit harsh. If I'm buying a girl a drink and I happen to like that girl, I would not compare this to going to a prostitute to get some. Normally, a girl will even offer you a drink back later. That's what I count on anyway. That's the normal way to behave.

Nonono, that's not what I meant, buying somebody a drink while you stand there chatting is perfectly normal behaviour IMO, it happens very often not only between people who have a romantic or sexual interest in each other, but between friends, colleagues and people you just met who you happen to be chatting with.

What I was refering to was what Magrus described as "measures guys use to pick up women" and "buy themself a date for the night".

Most people, men or women, will buy a drink for somebody else just because they want to be nice and polite. But when used as a pick up strategy, then I think the mindset is the same as picking up a prostitute, ie you view sex as something you could trade for. This goes for both genders in both types of situations.

Quote:

And don't forget, women do it too. hey just have other methodes. Many girls use men to get free drinks and do this intencionally.

I know, I have heard this numerous times from my male friends. Not only that, some women use even more sexist methods to gain advantages.

Quote:

I don't think the men or women are the victems here. Using another goes back and forth. I'm not saying that I'm a part of this, but it does happen.

It is my firm opinion that gender role stereotypes and sexist make both men and women victims since it prevents genuine interaction and honest communication between people. I always make a conscious effort not to take part of such games since I dislike it.

[Dottie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Elegans I know, I have heard this numerous times from my male friends. Not only that, some women use even more sexist methods to gain advantages.

A friend and I were standing in a cue to a club in Stockholm. A girl behind us asked my friend if she could take his place in the cue. When my friend denied her she ask if he would change his mind if he got to take a look at her legs. He replied that there were countless legs in the club and that he didnt have any specific interest in hers. Nevertheless convincing her of the truth of this took atleast a few minutes.

I think the shocking thing is not only that she wished to trade so to speak, but also that she apearently thought my friend was interested in a looking at an unknown womans legs.

[Rob-hin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Elegans Nonono, that's not what I meant, buying somebody a drink while you stand there chatting is perfectly normal behaviour IMO, it happens very often not only between people who have a romantic or sexual interest in each other, but between friends, colleagues and people you just met who you happen to be chatting with. What I was refering to was what Magrus described as "measures guys use to pick up women" and "buy themself a date for the night". Most people, men or women, will buy a drink for somebody else just because they want to be nice and polite. But when used as a pick up strategy, then I think the mindset is the same as picking up a prostitute, ie you view sex as something you could trade for. This goes for both genders in both types of situations. I know, I have heard this numerous times from my male friends. Not only that, some women use even more sexist methods to gain advantages. It is my firm opinion that gender role stereotypes and sexist make both men and women victims since it prevents genuine interaction and honest communication between people. I always make a conscious effort not to take part of such games since I dislike it.

Righto, I understand now.
Sorry for the mis-interpretation.

[Rob-hin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottie A friend and I were standing in a cue to a club in Stockholm. A girl behind us asked my friend if she could take his place in the cue. When my friend denied her she ask if he would change his mind if he got to take a look at her legs. He replied that there were countless legs in the club and that he didnt have any specific interest in hers. Nevertheless convincing her of the truth of this took atleast a few minutes. I think the shocking thing is not only that she wished to trade so to speak, but also that she apearently thought my friend was interested in a looking at an unknown womans legs.

Lol
Something like that happend to me too.

I was in a bar a couple of years back and we ordered a can with a couple of liters beer. (Heavy drinker ) This girl come up to me. "Hey, can I have a drink." So I think she's making conversation and I give her a beer or two. She takes and and emiditely walks of. Naturally. I was angry.

We knew where she sat, as it was our favorite spot too. Sh after an hour she leaves and we sit down. I look at the floor and find a small money bag (no cards or anything, just money). Some money and coins to pay in that bar with. In other words: free beer for Rob-hin as I had no intention to give it back to her after what she did to me.

She even came back later but didn't dare asking me if I had found it.

... I'm so evil.

[FweL]

My money.

ROTFL :

[C Elegans]

@Rob-hin: Np, misunderstandings occur easily

Quote:

Originally Posted by FweL My money. ROTFL :

Does this mean: girls who try to take advantage of me for money, make me emotionally unstable?

[fable]

I'm still trying to figure out whether he's obsessed with emoticons, or rolled on his keyboard.

[Rob-hin]

@ CE and Fable
my thoughts exaclty (only transformed into witty remarks)

[FweL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable I'm still trying to figure out whether he's obsessed with emoticons, or rolled on his keyboard.

Who me? Well if it is me that you mean. Then answer is no. There aren't just enough emotions here to tell shortly how i feel.

But still as side note... i am guy.

[Macleod1701]

Well I never minded buying a girl a drink if I was out with her or knew her but I'd never buy something for a complete stranger.

Strangely enough my gf earns about £21K while I am on a measly 14K a year, yet she is always more skint than me due to previous debts, but thankfully I'm helping her sort that out. Regardless we always share the costs of meals/films, etc it's just a lot more fair.