Newbie Unfriendly

[Lost One]

Ok, so I'm bringing the arguments of the last posts about newbie unfriendlyness into this thread since it started becoming a whole new topic of discussion and I didn't want it to drag on there.

I believe that this forum is not newbie friendly, and Xandax does not agree with me. So I will to prove this here.

Let's start with point number 4) of SYM specific rules:

Be respectful of other people’s creed and religious beliefs.

Take a look at this thread: Religious Discrimination

I read that thread and I was very insulted by the content such as:

Well, the pope is simply another high-profile figure who deserves no more respect or reverence than your average politician.

For that alone I say burn him at the stake.

(in reference to the pope)

@Nightmare: That was my second reason for burning him at the stake... only seems fair.

Now, if I let my grandfather read this, (and he's a priest), I think he would have a heart attack. It shows little respect for another's religion and I, myself, was offended. It was like saying burn the Queen to an Englishman.
The reason I used these quotes is because I'm sure that if a newbie had said those things, he would not have gotten away with it, and would have at the very least been alerted, if not have his post deleted.

I'll add more examples as we go along...

[CM]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I agree it should be curbed for taste and the like. But you can not muffle freedom of speech and expect everybody to be politically correct.

Second i dont that is newbie unfriendly. It was a heated discussion where i was involved. I did not like what others had to say but they are entitled to their opinion.

And as being a muslim i am used to hearing alot said about my religion which does not make sense or action attributed towards my religion. But again everybody is entitled to their opinion regardless how it may make others feel.

[Lost One]

But again everybody is entitled to their opinion regardless how it may make others feel.

True, but forum rules and common courtesy say that you have to censor yourself so as not to disrespect others.

But anyway, I only used that as an example of how if a newbie had said those things, he would not have gotten away lightly.

PS: just so I won't bother other people, I'll keep the discussion of newbie unfriendlyness out of the other topics and bring it here. anyone else, feel free to add your thoughts. i'm actually getting a headache for having to justify myself every time I make an opinion, so I'm going to lay low for a while...http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_19.gif

If I actually to stop to think things through, I think everyone should just have fun here, and allow others to have fun too, newbie or not.

[Luis Antonio]

Hey, bro LO, dont worry...

They dont agree, but doesnt mean they want to throw you out.

I like different opinion so I can get my own ideas balanced, and thouhgt of.

BTW, disrupting forum laws is bad, but sometimes it happens and it needs to happen.

Gamebanshee Sym is scary to newbies sometimes, but you just gotta play the game sometimes... I mean... Not everybody likes me, but, to the hell with that.

[Bloodstalker]

Originally Posted by Lost One

EDIT: I'd just like to add a PS...which is that I'm not particularly sorry for the dying of SYM as the vets are putting it. When you're not lenient towards new bloods or friendly towards them, then you are leaving the heart (the forum, in this case) to run on old blood which will eventually not prove sufficient. The way for evolution is for change to happen...and threads like 'Anomen Experiment' and all that nostalgic mambo jambo suggest the vets are clinging to the past and not allowing the forum to evolve..

This was taken from the community thread in an attempt to keep that thread free of this type of discussion as Lost One has requested.

I just wish to say that thread such as these are not always what they may appear on the surface to be. This was not an attempt at nostalgia on my part, nor was it an attempt to cling to the past. This thread was continueddue to an MSN conversation between myself and another member of the board who I consider one of my closest freinds here. It had nothing to do with anything other than a kind of joke between us that a couple other people have seemed to enjoy a bit as well. Kind of like a juvenile dare thing.

I also want to comment on a few of the threads that you claimed violated forum rules. Such as CM's kingdom thing. SYM has always had threads that were there for no other reason save the entertainment of the posters. It has never been frowned upon or discouraged as far as I know. However, I have seen a few vets of the forum get warned for making posts that have no reason behind them at all. I think the goal of the rules is more to keep the board from becoming a place filled with posts designed to do nothing more than boost a members post count. For example, counting posts are not tolerated, by newbie or by veteran.

Also, for the record, it runs both ways. I myself have attemptedto offer assistance to several newer members in the other forums at different times and been met with sarcastic replies for my efforts. It depends more on the person to me than anything like their tenure here. although there is a bit of tact required in any social circumstance. For instance, you wouldn't walk into a group you have never met before, and begin teasing or insulting them in the same way that the members of the group would. Even if it's meant in fun, without a decent basis for recognizing that, which can only come from time spent with the group, you run the risk of being looked on as a jerk or similar. I have seen a few newer members over the time I have been here go this route, and some have been innocent, many were simply trolls. Note I am not accusing you or anyone else of any of these actions, just relating some of the reasons why I think newer members are watched a little closer or may be treated with a little less room for doubt by some members. Just my 2 cents though

[Luis Antonio]

Or, is not the spanish inquisition, but it is not also the country fair.

[Aegis]

I agree with you, Lost One, that is a lot of newbie unfriendliness, I don't think you chose a good example, though. For one, the post you quoted doesn't so much go against the forum rule, as for the most part, the people were expressing distaste with a figure of the religion, not the religion itself.

Anyway, BS said it nicely, a lot of the unfriendliness is on account of someone new making a bold first statement, and it is only worse if done in a heated debate, but the fact some members (I think almost all 'veterans' are included in this) react with the same tenacity, and expect the same from everyone, not just the regulars. What I mean by this, is that the comment is so out of place sometimes, that the people overreact, and snap, as though the comment should be made at the same calibre as the majority of the debate or discussion. This is just wrong.

[Maharlika]

I beg to disagree, Lost One.

First of all, this is me as a regular poster and not as a mod, hence the teal font.

The problem lies with the fact that a number of the vets have been here for some time, some of the conversation between them can't be fully understood by a newbie since a number of the comments would be private jokes between them. Hence, some comments from a newbie may sound off key if not fresh (cheeky?). Also, it is normal for newbies to feel "out of place" because the conversation between the vets are about stuff from way, way back.

Mind, this does not mean that the older members have no interest in accommodating newbies.

Maybe what we need is another tavern since that's where newbies and vets normally hangout and get to know one another and not at serious/spam-free threads.

Another note would be that some of the reprimands/reminders to some members are not posted in public but through pm's, most especially if the issue is very personal. Hence, the general membership would not be aware that there IS communication.

Personally, I think reprimands or warnings to newbies are likely to be posted in public, not to humiliate them, but to serve as an example to other newbies since their mistakes are very common among newbies. However, when the participants in the discussion involve a lot of people (newbies and vets), such reprimands are done in public since pm's to all these people involved can be quite taxing and time consuming.

I'm Catholic and though I feel "slightly slighted" by some people wanting to have the Pope burnt at the stake, I look first at the reason why such poster would say so. Mostly these people are not of the Faith and so I try to see where their comments and arguments are coming from. If such statements are of a mocking manner at the religion itself just because I believe in God and they do not, then chances are, I WILL be offended.

At any rate, if you do feel offended because of certain posts, why don't you pm the mods and buck? Not unless you want it to be known, we rarely mention who the offended party is unless the person wants to make it known that he was offended.

[Luis Antonio]

Originally Posted by Maharlika

Maybe what we need is another tavern since that's where newbies and vets normally hangout and get to know one another and not at serious/spam-free threads.

Mah, I'm doing this uninvited, but...

Suggestion: The house of disgust.

It is supposed to be a Tavern. Has lots of spam. Introductory theory about Anomen & BS (Self proclaimed Lord of Lurkers) & AC and has become a funny place where I do go every now and then.

(do you mind BS?) (I hope not)

[Lost One]

Ok, it seems I'm not very good with examples, so simply answer me this:

How comes it's the same faces doing 95% of the conversations here for the last 2 years (at the least)?

You don't see this in any of the other forums. Sure, you can argue that people post in BG2, then eventually lose interest in the game (is such a thing possible? ) and move on. But still, for a public forum, I can't imagine that newbies would not try to be active speakers here. I mean, GB has lots of members. I expected down the line for this forum to be with the old faces and new faces speaking on a regular basis...where the new faces would eventually become old faces too. But this hasn't happened. So I question why...and it just led me to believe that this forum is just newbie unfriendly, and kind of like a closed party for the social vets, where you need invitation for people to come in. I also saw, and others have agreed with me on this, that people are generally harsher on newbies coming in.

Oh yeah, my point on the first post, was not that I got offended. I just used it to illustrate the fact that had a newbie said such a thing (burn the pope!) it would have probably been considered spam and offensive.

One last thing...Mah said "Maybe we need another tavern"...well, I'm not sure if a thread made for social hanging-out solves this issue. Why? because it's generally commanded by the vets once more, and there's pretty much a limit to the kind of conversation you can have in there. That is...there is not enough space for too many speakers. If you have lots of people trying to socialize in ONE thread (eg.people who have not yet met)...you will pretty much lose track of what everyone's talking about. That is my take anyway.

What I'd like to suggest though, is opening up one or two more forums. I believe this SYM has become too serious...and I think a new SYM for spamming and JUST socializing would be great, specially for newbies. Sometimes newbies come in to speak on serious threads here, and because they are not used to the demands on them, such as providing accurate information, having to censor themselves to the extreme, and that kind of thing, they become disappointed. This would also be an answer to the Community thread. It could be called the Friendly Tavern or Social Forum.

My second idea for a new forum would be a Newbie forum. One designed mainly to encourage newbies to talk to each other and create friendships...and also answering newbie questions such as 'how do I quote?' or use different smilies? or other forum-related things. Then, it would be expected that they eventually move on to talk elsewhere, such as the Social forum or SYM. Basically, having one forum for serious talk (this one currently), another for friendly socializing, and another for newbies to jump in and play around would do wonders. If you want an example of where I got these ideas from, it's IRC. When I started chatting in IRC channels, I used to go to the mIRC for newbies, or IRChelp, or stuff like that to get used to IRC itself and learn how to use different colors, and such before moving on to the other channels. And what you had in the other channels were the serious and friendly ones. When you mix serious and friendly into one, it just doesn't quite do it, I think.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed my ideas. I sincerely think they could make GB a better place for mingling, more newbie friendly, and what have you.

[dragon wench]

Originally Posted by Lost One

One last thing...Mah said "Maybe we need another tavern"...well, I'm not sure if a thread made for social hanging-out solves this issue. Why? because it's generally commanded by the vets once more, and there's pretty much a limit to the kind of conversation you can have in there. That is...there is not enough space for too many speakers. If you have lots of people trying to socialize in ONE thread (eg.people who have not yet met)...you will pretty much lose track of what everyone's talking about. That is my take anyway.

Well your choice, but you are more than welcome to drop by the BBQ thread I have set up, I thought maybe a brand new socialising thread might be an idea I have been involved in many threads where people socialise at once. Sure, it can be hard to keep up sometimes, but it is often a lot of fun as well. Certainly, more established members flock to such threads first, but really that is only natural, and mimics real life in some ways. You can go to any bar and there will always be groups of regulars clustered about. However, it is also common enough for new people to wander up to the bar, order a drink.. chat with the bar tender, and become incorporated into whatever conversations are occurring. If you go into a pub with the idea of getting to know people and giving them the benefit of the doubt, chances are you will end up having fun.

On the other hand, if you wander in doggedly convinced that everyone will hate you you'll have a miserable time because your attitude will show, and in effect become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Look... just relax and have fun.. believe it or not we are, in general, actually a pretty tolerant crowd here. I don't want to argue with you, I'm just trying to say.... maybe chill out a bit... I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm perfectly willing to say let's begin our acquaintance anew and hoist a round of whatever drink you enjoy.

[Ned Flanders]

by Lost One
How comes it's the same faces doing 95% of the conversations here for the last 2 years (at the least)? You don't see this in any of the other forums.

When you say any other forums are you referring to other GB forums or other website's forums? Furthermore, I can't tell you how many other website forums I've been bashed in or ignored so I don't really comprehend the isolation of GB being newbie unfriendly. I've experienced newbie unfriendly everywhere I went including here. However, I made a huge arse out of myself in SYM upon initially arriving sarcastically attacking one of the boards long time and respected members. I apologized both in public and private to the board and member, cleared things up, and I've been fairly accepted around here ever since. We were all newbies once.

by Lost One
I expected down the line for this forum to be with the old faces and new faces speaking on a regular basis...where the new faces would eventually become old faces too. But this hasn't happened.

Actually, this was sort of happening but SYM experienced a large rift when a specific 'veteran' member was banned. It drove a lot of people off and kept things quiet around here for a couple of months, especially with veterans, myself included. However, after a while I came back along with others to find SYM populated and flowing with a lot of new people. I guess those newbies are now veterans also.

by Lost One
One last thing...Mah said "Maybe we need another tavern"...well, I'm not sure if a thread made for social hanging-out solves this issue. Why? because it's generally commanded by the vets once more, and there's pretty much a limit to the kind of conversation you can have in there.

New people to taverns have always been welcome. People either jive or they don't; just go with the flow, you won't be ignored in bars here. If you don't understand a specific joke as a newbie, then ask. I hang out in most taverns and the people I hang there with would answer anyone's question. Again, I was a newbie and there were plenty of inside jokes I didn't get. Some, I searched the boards for answers. Others, I let go. Eventually, I got to be a part of some inside jokes as they happened.

by Lost One
What I'd like to suggest though, is opening up one or two more forums. I believe this SYM has become too serious

I have to disagree. I've always found plenty to be a part of around here, still do, and I almost always avoid discussions surrounding politics, religion, or shrub unless I think some specific point has been entirely overlooked (which is rare).

by Lost One
My second idea for a new forum would be a Newbie forum. One designed mainly to encourage newbies to talk to each other and create friendships...and also answering newbie questions such as 'how do I quote?' or use different smilies? or other forum-related things. Then, it would be expected that they eventually move on to talk elsewhere, such as the Social forum or SYM.

I think there is already a game banshee discussion and tech support forums to cover any questions regarding forum navigation and technical questions. You also mention it would be expected that they move on to talk elsewhere. That to me, sounds user unfriendly (no offense to member 'user unfriendly'). I don't want to be expected to go anywhere around here, but that's just me.

Given the sensitivity and thought you put into this, it brings me no pleasure to disagree with you on all fronts as I have (since it sort of brims with newbie unfriendliness) but I do. Personally, I have tried to treat to everyone I come across here with respect and I believe I can speak on behalf of most veterans that they extend similar courteousness. I certainly never look at someone's post count when replying to them and even if I did, I would probably treat those newer with more care and be more thorough with explanations. But again, that's just me, one member out of ten thousand plus.

Bottom line is, I think anything someone is new to is newbie unfriendly. As a child, my family moved a couple of times. It was hard as hell fitting into to new places, making friends. I just dealt with it, and found my niche in each of those locations. You mentioned around here, people leave because they don't like it or feel intimidated. At least they have the opportunity to go elsewhere and try something new out. Perhaps this is a poor analogy, I don't know, I'm not privy to all the fallacies of rhetoric.

I've always found the GB forums to be one of the best and easiest to get along at. This includes the months I spent lurking before I finally joined as a member.

[Yshania]

Hi Lost One I do not post anywhere near as much as I used to do, but I do lurk occasionally, to check in on my GB friends or keep uptodate in general. I have seen many faces come and go, and more faces go from "newbie" status to "veteran" status...I remember when Bloodstalker was a newbie in SYM, poor thing, I stuck up for him back then. Look where that got us! *rolleyes*

If there is any level of unfriendliness towards "newbies" I don't think it is a recent issue, yet I do believe this is one of the most friendliest boards I have visited on the net, hence I still come here after all this time. I lurked the board for 6 months, becoming familiar with general etiquette and even with some of the regular posters, before finally joining over three years ago now. I like DW's example of walking into a bar, you would behave in a certain way, observe the regulars, start polite conversation etc etc. Eventually, you become a regular

Ironically, one of the first posts I remember reading of yours was a sweeping comment suggesting English football fans would resort to thuggery and vandalism in Portugal following England's defeat by France. I must admit, I wasn't best amused by the comment, but I am prepared to forgive and forget I would have responded the same way had it been anyone who had posted that comment.

If you are feeling somewhat excluded, my advice would be to make the effort and get to know people. We were all new once you know

[Yshania]

*runs up and hugs Neddy!!* hey! is that cow cooked yet? I am heading over to the BBQ now!

[Ned Flanders]

sure Ysh, gotta spam up someone's thread intent on a serious discussion. Oh drat, now I've done it too. Go to the BBQ thread, I'll be there, and grab Lost One, in case he can't find it.