Mysterious Jet (no spam)

[Chanak]

I thought some of us might find this intriguing:

Mysterious Jet

I think it's intriguing, disturbing, and not much of a surprise, really. Thoughts?

[Ideal Maxima]

i read the first few paragraphs and got bored. But it is still pretty interesting. Can someone please sum it all up for me please

[giles337]

I don't get it. How do they link this plane to 9/11?

[Sytze]

Isn't this kind of old news? I recall hearing about it a week ago, or so.
A CIA plane was spotted landing in a lot of countries that allow torture, among other things. In any case, a CIA plane holding prisoners, or possible terrorists, that is landing in countries who do not hold the human laws in high regard, isn't really surprising to me.
They need to get their information out of subject anyway they can and anyway they see fit. Should the public opinion discover that the US is still torturing people on its own soil, then the government, and especially the CIA, has a problem. Moving prisoners to other countries so they can be tortured there, would logically be the wisest option for the CIA.

[dragon wench]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ideal Maxima i read the first few paragraphs and got bored. But it is still pretty interesting. Can someone please sum it all up for me please

No Read it all yourself, it's good training

[Maharlika]

... no spamming the thread, darling.

Although adding something relevant written in that same post will be very much appreciated.

Quote:

Since Sept. 11, unnamed U.S. officials have been quoted in several publications discussing the U.S. practice of "rendition," which involves sending suspected terrorists or Al Qaeda supporters captured abroad for interrogation to countries where human rights are not traditionally respected.

I find this very intriguing. Smart in an evil kind of way.

[Tower_Master]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytze Isn't this kind of old news? I recall hearing about it a week ago, or so. A CIA plane was spotted landing in a lot of countries that allow torture, among other things. In any case, a CIA plane holding prisoners, or possible terrorists, that is landing in countries who do not hold the human laws in high regard, isn't really surprising to me. They need to get their information out of subject anyway they can and anyway they see fit. Should the public opinion discover that the US is still torturing people on its own soil, then the government, and especially the CIA, has a problem. Moving prisoners to other countries so they can be tortured there, would logically be the wisest option for the CIA.

I completely concur with you on this one, Sytze. The CIA needs to get information out of terrorists SOMEHOW, and you can be sure that they won't return the favor if we're all civil and polite when it comes to questioning them. Sometimes you've got to get dirty for the "greater good".

[Magrus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon wench No Read it all yourself, it's good training

It's true. The best way to do it is, either grab a dictionary, or use the internet to look up words you don't know, and just go over ever piece of it until you understand it. Doing that with books and news and such will eventually lead you a very large vocabulary base that you won't need to bother anymore unless someone throws something technical at you or starts making up words. It comes in handy with conversations too. Once you know a word and what it means, you can apply it. There is just very few things in public worse than trying to look smart by using big words out of context, especially with girls or in a job situation.

As for the article, it doesn't surprise me. I've met some people with family in the military who've told me stories about how things were done in Veitnam and Desert Storm, during war and the cleanup afterwards that simply, if the facts got out with proof, would upset a great number of people. Shipping captives overseas, torturing them out of sight, and bringing back criminals and evidence for the masses none the wiser is a "smart" political way of handling things. Not that I approve, torturing someone to get evidence and proof doesn't really hold up well. If you don't have the information you need in the first place, why are doing such things in order to get it with the risk of being way off? As for the people who have done such horrible things, well, from what I know of actual prisons, depending on your situation in them, it's just slow torture based on chances out of sight from guards by other inmates.

Then again, with how a large base of people in this country have been after 9/11, who knows? Maybe a majority would approve doing so on American soil for terrorists. They've already approved quite a bit I was shocked at so far.

[Ideal Maxima]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tower_Master I completely concur with you on this one, Sytze. The CIA needs to get information out of terrorists SOMEHOW, and you can be sure that they won't return the favor if we're all civil and polite when it comes to questioning them. Sometimes you've got to get dirty for the "greater good".

@magrus and DW

awww common, life is already hard, do you have to make it harder?

[Magrus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ideal Maxima @magrus and DW awww common, life is already hard, do you have to make it harder? Today 09:59 PM

It'll be good for you. Teaches you patience and how to learn on your own, which is quite a valuable thing. It's not that long really, I was killing novels in a day or two at your age. Reading higher level stuff now, and understanding it will help you 5 years from now a LOT. I.E., put in the extra effort now, and it may still be paying off a decade from now. Besides, it's got topics from the military, to business, the CIA, foreign relations, tons of stuff. It's history class in a short article on current events.

[Chanak]

@maxima: Learning how to gather information on your own, and then form your own opinion from what you learn, can make you a dangerous person. It turns you into a skeptic, for starters. Skeptics are infamous rabble-rousers who refuse to swallow the first thing that's fed to them. This is because a skeptic acquires a taste for information free of additives, preservatives, artifical flavors and colors. The information manufacturers, who liberally add MSG and cyanide to the packaged meals they want everyone to consume and become addicted to, don't like skeptics. They're bad for business.

There is no better time to become a skeptical truth-seeker than when you're young. Develop the skills now to judge for yourself what the truth might be. Contrary to what the government claims, a good American is one who actually cares.

This article might be old news, but it's not old here. I felt it was worthy of a thread since it raises issues concerning secrecy and deception. Do the ends justify the means? Can a government tout itself a model of human rights when it engages in dirty spook operations such as what the article alludes to? If it does this to foreign nationals in the name of a cause, will it also do something similar to its own citizens? I think it does.

[Magrus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanak This article might be old news, but it's not old here. I felt it was worthy of a thread since it raises issues concerning secrecy and deception. Do the ends justify the means? Can a government tout itself a model of human rights when it engages in dirty spook operations such as what the article alludes to? If it does this to foreign nationals in the name of a cause, will it also do something similar to its own citizens? I think it does.

I concur, this, coupled with the patriot act, is something that is making me wonder "what else am I missing out of the picture?".

A friend of mine showed me this link to a graphical project someone did on the national budget, which I found interesting. It shows a spread of the finances of the U.S. across the board with everything. I haven't done the research to see if it's accurate, but if it is, it's quite interesting to see how money is spent here. Maybe I should put that up so others could look at it?

The fact the government is using private corporations to hide financing private jets to carry prisoners overseas and torture them is disturbing. It's like they've gone to underground criminal activities to get answers in my eyes, Mafia meets CIA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanak @maxima: Learning how to gather information on your own, and then form your own opinion from what you learn, can make you a dangerous person. It turns you into a skeptic, for starters. Skeptics are infamous rabble-rousers who refuse to swallow the first thing that's fed to them. This is because a skeptic acquires a taste for information free of additives, preservatives, artifical flavors and colors. The information manufacturers, who liberally add MSG and cyanide to the packaged meals they want everyone to consume and become addicted to, don't like skeptics. They're bad for business. There is no better time to become a skeptical truth-seeker than when you're young. Develop the skills now to judge for yourself what the truth might be. Contrary to what the government claims, a good American is one who actually cares.

Educate the young! Oh wow, I'm getting old...going to go dust off my Nintendo and play Duck Hunt...

[Vicsun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ideal Maxima i read the first few paragraphs and got bored. But it is still pretty interesting. Can someone please sum it all up for me please

This came off quite obnoxiously, though I'm sure not intentionally so. No one's doing the work for you, kid.

Regarding the article: is it really a surprise? Normally I'd discount articles about governmental cover-ups as crackpot, but this just seems so... ordinary. Does anyone honestly think the CIA operates within international law 100% of the time?

[Nippy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicsun This came off quite obnoxiously, though I'm sure not intentionally so. No one's doing the work for you, kid.

That had already been done and gone over Vicsun, no need to bring it up again.

The idea and the thought of the action is reprehensible BUT, can we argue that the ends justify the means? I don't believe so. Torture solves nothing as coercion and the simple fact that people crack and will admit to being the Pope if they're tortured enough to stop the pain belie the use of torture as an effective interrogation method.

I dislike the idea that its behind the back - my family and I were discussing a similar fact over dinner the other night. I raised the point that the media now discloses any information it feels will sell - I didn't say I liked it, but I said it was done because it earned them money and thats what they're there to do. The other side of the argument is that they shouldn't as we don't need to see or criticise what our army/agency/government do to achieve what they feel they need to achieve, whatever that may be. Is that correct? Should some people be left "blind" to the world so they don't see stuff like torture? Personally I like to know what goes on with a military that I in essence pay for, however, I think that the information should be controlled and verified. There is too much misinformation and wrong facts that create a worse a situation than needed - particularly things like releasing the names of the soldiers who were accused of torture.

@ Chan, you raise some good questions regarding secrecy. The US as a government has a relatively "open" media and information source, right? The UK through our own secret agencies close down and guarantee media blackouts if something like this happened. The problem we face as a member of this country is that we don't know a lot of what has and will happen in the pursuit of terrorists. Is that something that should happen in the US too? Does it happen?

[Vicsun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippy That had already been done and gone over Vicsun, no need to bring it up again.

Oh okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippy The idea and the thought of the action is reprehensible BUT, can we argue that the ends justify the means? I don't believe so. Torture solves nothing as coercion and the simple fact that people crack and will admit to being the Pope if they're tortured enough to stop the pain belie the use of torture as an effective interrogation method.

There is often information more valuable than a confession that needs to be extracted. Torturing someone to admittance of their crimes is useless, and I'm sure people other than you have also realized it. Just sayin'