More Terror in the Skies? (no spam)

[dragon wench]

I'm sure most people have heard of this by now....

Very worrying, on so many levels....

When a SYM mod has the chance, could you please separate "MoreTerror" in my title...Thanks!
Yes.. I know...

[fable]

What I find suspicious is that the US government has raised the alert level on *all* domestic flights to the highest policy--this, despite no evidence that there has been any indication of terrorist activity, at home. But they have done this every single time the government has appeared to lose a big one. They did it after the Hurricane Katrina debacle. They did it after the Abu Ghraib scandal broke. Granted, from a UK perspective, this is serious (and good) news; but why should US security suddenly go to high (imminent attack) alert? The attack was foiled, and it was outside the country.

But Connecticut dems just did something almost unprecedented: they removed a sitting senator during the nominating poll process. (It's happened only 4 times in the last 50 years in the US.) And the man who was removed was a close pal of the Bush administration, so close, that after announcing he's running as an independent, Cheney declared the Lamont supporters would help al-Q'aeda. And Carl Rove, the Smear Master, whose dirty tactics are credited with getting a large number of Republicans elected (including Bush, twice), has offered his help in Lieberman's campaign. I have to wonder, under the circumstances, whether going to alert status isn't a way of trying to push the fear button that Bush so loves to use and get his subjects back in line.

[dragon wench]

None of that would not surprise me in the slightest Fable. Especially when you look at some of the manipulative hyperbole being used.

Quote:

President Bush called the arrests “a stark reminder that this nation is at war with Islamic fascists who will use any means to destroy those of us who love freedom.’’

[mr_sir]

This has been on the news all day today over here. Its a bit worrying but security has become so tight in airports now. There have been quite a few arrests too. There is more on it at BBC NEWS | UK | Police probe flights terror plot

[Phreddie]

They say they were going to blwo up ten or so planes, yes? It seems unlikely that there would be ten or so planes going from heathrow to the states at the same time at any given time. This is a point my brother raised; is it possible that there are more conspirators on this sid eof the pond that need arresting? Or where they all caught before the cell broke up and went to their final destinations?

[Darzog]

Just to clarify Fable, all of the reports I've been hearing are saying that only the flights coming from the UK are at Red (highest) status. All other flights are at Orange (2nd highest) status. And the majority of Air Marshall build up is going to be focused on trans-Atlantic flights between the US and Western Europe.

And I hate defending Bush, but I find that the general reaction to him is excessive to say the least. Try to think about this from a different perspective...

He was criticized for not stepping up security before 9/11 when there were random rumors that bin Laden didn't like us. He was criticized for not stepping in sooner and forcing people to evacuate for Katrina and then Rita.

Now there is word of a serious threat; he steps up security just to be on the safe side and he gets criticized for pushing the panic button. Isn't it possible that he isn't this dyabolical mastermind manipulating every major event in the world to his own advantage?

I'm not saying that he dealt with 9/11 or Katrina (or anything else for that matter) well but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

[fable]

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Originally Posted by Darzog Just to clarify Fable, all of the reports I've been hearing are saying that only the flights coming from the UK are at Red (highest) status. All other flights are at Orange (2nd highest) status. And the majority of Air Marshall build up is going to be focused on trans-Atlantic flights between the US and Western Europe.

My wife is supposed to fly back from Boston, early this evening. She's been told that all her luggage should be repacked, because nothing liquid will be allowed--not even toothpaste. She said she was told it was a red alert for domestic flights, too. It sounds that way.

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And I hate defending Bush, but I find that the general reaction to him is excessive to say the least. Try to think about this from a different perspective...

He was criticized for not stepping up security before 9/11 when there were random rumors that bin Laden didn't like us. He was criticized for not stepping in sooner and forcing people to evacuate for Katrina and then Rita.

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Now there is word of a serious threat; he steps up security just to be on the safe side and he gets criticized for pushing the panic button. Isn't it possible that he isn't this dyabolical mastermind manipulating every major event in the world to his own advantage?

What serious threat? The threat was far more serious before the terrorists in the UK cell were caught than [/i]now[/i]. And the threat was in the UK. What's more, there's a history of raising red alerts everytime something unpleasant happens to this administration. You're welcome to check the incident of those compared to the couple of events I've already mentioned.

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I'm not saying that he dealt with 9/11 or Katrina (or anything else for that matter) well but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Nobody would damn him if he didn't raise a red alert, now. Who would do it? Who's singing the "they're soft on terrorists!" theme song..? The Republicans about the Dems, not the other way around. The Dems are so far from getting their act together that the party was put on its ear by annoyed Connecticut voters who tossed Lieberman out. No, Bush has been repeatedly accused of using red alerts as a fear push button--and he certainly is being accused of it, again, here. So if he wanted to avoid censure, the logical thing to do would be to avoid pushing that button, again.

[Ravager]

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Originally Posted by Phreddie They say they were going to blwo up ten or so planes, yes? It seems unlikely that there would be ten or so planes going from heathrow to the states at the same time at any given time. This is a point my brother raised; is it possible that there are more conspirators on this sid eof the pond that need arresting? Or where they all caught before the cell broke up and went to their final destinations?

From what I've heard, they were planning the bombs over several days rather than one day of bombs and since they were to be using such common items that could be carried in as innocous hand luggage, they'd get past security (even after it being raised had a bomb actually gone off).

[mr_sir]

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Originally Posted by Phreddie They say they were going to blwo up ten or so planes, yes? It seems unlikely that there would be ten or so planes going from heathrow to the states at the same time at any given time. This is a point my brother raised; is it possible that there are more conspirators on this sid eof the pond that need arresting? Or where they all caught before the cell broke up and went to their final destinations?

They said there were 10 or so planes but I'm not sure if all of them were actually going to the states as I know incoming flights from Europe to Heathrow were stopped as well as outgoing flights (at least thats what the BBC news bulletin said this morning). Its possible that there could be more terrorists involved in various other countries but the only reports I've heard so far have been about the ones in Britain. As far as I know, the police think they have caught all the main members of the cell but I'm not sure if they've caught everyone that was involved.

Edit: Just seen Ravager's post. I heard something similar to that too.

[fable]

The red alert does only apply to international flights, supposedly, though some politicians, trying to cash in on this, have made futile but expensive gestures: Arnie's ordered the National Guard to the airports in California, and Massachusetts Republican governor Romney (who has already stated he wants to be the next president) ordered the Guards to the major Boston airport. Not that there's been a single case of a terrorist pulling out a weapon from their toenails to start shooting people at random in US airports, still, you never know...

EDIT: It appears all US airports have been placed on high alert for domestic flights, as well.

Is anybody except myself embarassed at Bush's use of "Islamic fascists?" Where does he get this stuff?

[Chimaera182]

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Originally Posted by fable What I find suspicious is that the US government has raised the alert level on *all* domestic flights to the highest policy--this, despite no evidence that there has been any indication of terrorist activity, at home. But they have done this every single time the government has appeared to lose a big one. They did it after the Hurricane Katrina debacle. They did it after the Abu Ghraib scandal broke. Granted, from a UK perspective, this is serious (and good) news; but why should US security suddenly go to high (imminent attack) alert? The attack was foiled, and it was outside the country.

I can understand and rationalize why they would raise the alert after Katrina, but I don't exactly buy it anyway. But if part of the US is in such a weakened state, it might entice "terrorists" to attack, and cause even more damage and mayhem, or maybe hit relief supplies filtering to the area, causing that much more consternation. But like I said, I don't exactly buy it. And as for raising the terror alert level now after this supposed plot was foiled, it's possible they didn't root out all the conspirators, or that some other group was planning to simultaneously commit a similar attack in the US. Or maybe they just don't want people to wonder why an attack almost occured in the UK and we're sitting here on our hands, when such an attack could at this very moment be in the process of being formalized and prepared for execution. Of course, I don't exactly buy those rationalizations, either.

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I have to wonder, under the circumstances, whether going to alert status isn't a way of trying to push the fear button that Bush so loves to use and get his subjects back in line.

The dictator does not shy away from fear to justify their actions. Nay, a good dictator uses fear as a tool, a weapon, with which to garner more power. A tried and true method of control; you can hardly blame Bush for being so unoriginal as to dust off that old trick, especially considering how effective it is (note, this is not a slur against Bush, a slam against the Administration, or any other politically-charged insult; it is, instead, a statement of the efficacy of the sort of thing fable alluded to).

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Originally Posted by dragon wench None of that would not surprise me in the slightest Fable. Especially when you look at some of the manipulative hyperbole being used. Quote: President Bush called the arrests “a stark reminder that this nation is at war with Islamic fascists who will use any means to destroy those of us who love freedom.’’

Doesn't surprise me, either. But no one said that a touch of cynicism was bad for you.

Islamic fascists... I seem to recall raising a stink about that phrase not too long ago; at least I think it was that phrase anyway. Islamic fascists my eye... more smokescreen rhetoric to give people a clear "them vs. us" mentality. Us Christian democrats gots to stop them there Islamic fascists who are a threat to everything we dun hold dear.

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Originally Posted by Darzog I'm not saying that he dealt with 9/11 or Katrina (or anything else for that matter) well but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

This surprises you? "The one truism in all politics is that loud voices will always be raised against any decision that is made." If security arrangements had been seen as not only good but even excessive at the airports on 9/11, and the attacks were still carried out, then the people would still cry out that not enough had been done. If the people had been evacuated to safety before Katrina, their property and a majority of their worldly possessions would be destroyed as well, and the people would cry out, wondering why their government hadn't done something about the levees in the first place, or deflected Katrina entirely so it struck elsewhere, or something. So yes, he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, but that's the price you pay for entering the field of politics.

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Originally Posted by Ravager From what I've heard, they were planning the bombs over several days rather than one day of bombs and since they were to be using such common items that could be carried in as innocous hand luggage, they'd get past security (even after it being raised had a bomb actually gone off).

Due to my ignorance of the methods of detection, I'm not sure about this, but I'm surprised some group of people didn't board a plane with inconspicuous pieces of stuff in their carry-on luggage, which, when put together, could create a weapon of some kind. Three people might come together with pieces of some kind of gun (obviously, certain parts would be easily identifiable, so masking them to be something else is necessary, or else use new, improved parts altogether), three more do, too, that sort of thing. And this sealed cockpit thing is a lark. If I was in charge of a group of people adamant about hijacking a plane, a sealed cockpit isn't gong to stop me; I'd just inform the pilot that if they didn't release the door, I'd begin killing passengers. They'll find a way.

To be perfectly honest, though, I'm a little surprised that a group like al Qaeda would try the same attack twice, even if it was in a different country. If al Qaeda's supposed to be as efficient and intelligent an organization as some claim, they would know better than to try the same trick twice. I'm not entirely convinced this episode is altogether genuine.

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Originally Posted by fable The red alert does only apply to international flights, supposedly, though some politicians, trying to cash in on this, have made futile but expensive gestures: Arnie's ordered the National Guard to the airports in California, and Massachusetts Republican governor Romney (who has already stated he wants to be the next president) ordered the Guards to the major Boston airport. Not that there's been a single case of a terrorist pulling out a weapon from their toenails to start shooting people at random in US airports, still, you never know... EDIT: It appears all US airports have been placed on high alert for domestic flights, as well. Is anybody except myself embarassed at Bush's use of "Islamic fascists?" Where does he get this stuff?

The politician who takes advantage of a situation to solidify their powerbase is being true to their profession. By making a grandstand show of force during some crisis, even one as far-removed as the other side of the world, a politician like Arnold gains bonus points with his constituents just for buffing up security at a time like this. It's a way to show the people that they're doing something--even if it is superficial and quite futile (but the majority of people probably don't even know that)--and that things are getting done. And you know, they probably revised the security plan so that passengers can carry nailclippers in just such a situation.

Islamic Fascists. Axis of Evil. Worldwide threat to democracy. His PR people need to realize that we don't live in the early 20th Century anymore. The current generation isn't as likely to respond to terms like "fascist" or "Axis" like the last few would.

[Darzog]

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Originally Posted by Chimaera182 This surprises you? "The one truism in all politics is that loud voices will always be raised against any decision that is made." If security arrangements had been seen as not only good but even excessive at the airports on 9/11, and the attacks were still carried out, then the people would still cry out that not enough had been done. If the people had been evacuated to safety before Katrina, their property and a majority of their worldly possessions would be destroyed as well, and the people would cry out, wondering why their government hadn't done something about the levees in the first place, or deflected Katrina entirely so it struck elsewhere, or something. So yes, he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, but that's the price you pay for entering the field of politics.

This doesn't surprise me when it comes from a random person because I don't expect much from the population in general. But when someone is mostly evenminded and fair but decides to become irrationally closed-minded whenever Bush is mentioned it does surprise me. I guess I expected better.

[dj_venom]

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Originally Posted by Chimaera182 ...But like I said, I don't exactly buy it. And as for raising the terror alert level now after this supposed plot was foiled, it's possible they didn't root out all the conspirators, or that some other group was planning to simultaneously commit a similar attack in the US. Or maybe they just don't want people to wonder why an attack almost occured in the UK and we're sitting here on our hands, when such an attack could at this very moment be in the process of being formalized and prepared for execution. Of course, I don't exactly buy those rationalizations, either.

I heard on a news report that the group would have had more contacts, as they were well prepared/co-ordinated. They figure there were some people involved, just not carrying the plan out, instead, being the mastermind, so to speak. But that was a few days back, so they may have found them/changed their thinking.

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Originally Posted by Chimaera182 ...Islamic fascists... I seem to recall raising a stink about that phrase not too long ago; at least I think it was that phrase anyway. Islamic fascists my eye... more smokescreen rhetoric to give people a clear "them vs. us" mentality. Us Christian democrats gots to stop them there Islamic fascists who are a threat to everything we dun hold dear. ...

Look, I want to make this perfectly clear, I am not one who brands Muslims as terrorists, and infact, I'm the other end of the scale, as I'm often defending them, and was even marked down in an essay I wrote about the stereotypes about Muslim terrorists, apparently I argued too much. BUT, I think that the President of the United States would have been privvy to more information than the casual news reporter. He would have been told about them all, and as such, what he says is probably true.

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Originally Posted by Chimaera182 ...To be perfectly honest, though, I'm a little surprised that a group like al Qaeda would try the same attack twice, even if it was in a different country. If al Qaeda's supposed to be as efficient and intelligent an organization as some claim, they would know better than to try the same trick twice. I'm not entirely convinced this episode is altogether genuine....

It wasn't the same trick, if as I assume, you're referring to 9/11. They had the explosives in gel/cream form, there wasn't the intention to hijack the plane, just blow it up. Once it's blown up, on one will be able to say how it happened, so they can carry out the attack several times, with the customs only looking for hard explosives, not bombs in toothpaste tubes.

[Chimaera182]

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Originally Posted by Chimaera182 ... I'm surprised some group of people didn't board a plane with inconspicuous pieces of stuff in their carry-on luggage, which, when put together, could create a weapon of some kind. Three people might come together with pieces of some kind of gun (obviously, certain parts would be easily identifiable, so masking them to be something else is necessary, or else use new, improved parts altogether), three more do, too, that sort of thing...

I really thought I'd read that article before. My mother went into a semi-lengthy tirade with me last night over what happened, which clearly I didn't know since, well, I didn't know. She went into detail about this plot of theirs, the first time I'd actually heard of it, and now I've finally read the article (I swore I'd read it before ).

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Originally Posted by dj_venom It wasn't the same trick, if as I assume, you're referring to 9/11. They had the explosives in gel/cream form, there wasn't the intention to hijack the plane, just blow it up. Once it's blown up, on one will be able to say how it happened, so they can carry out the attack several times, with the customs only looking for hard explosives, not bombs in toothpaste tubes.

Yes, I was, but clearly I hadn't read the article. Ugh.

BUT, I think that the President of the United States would have been privvy to more information than the casual news reporter. He would have been told about them all, and as such, what he says is probably true.

Just because I called it "smokescreen rhetoric" doesn't mean it isn't true. He's just selling it to the people with phrases like "Islamic fascists" and "lovers of freeom." People tend to dress up the truth in order to convince others of a point. You don't have to lie; in fact, lying can be dangerous, especially since you can be found out. No, I never said anything about Bush lying.

[dj_venom]

Hehe, don't worry about it mate. I've been caught out talking about something that I realised a little while into the discussion, I knew nothing about.

Okay, just that the phrase 'Islamic fascists' triggered with me when I heard it, but I had to remind myself about what is heard.

Unlike the US, Australia hasn't stepped up terrorism, nor deployed any armed presence at major airports. The Foreign Minister has come out saying that there was no intelligence suggesting an attack directed at Australia, though security regarding creams etc. have been stepped up. And as Darzog alluded to, the government has been criticised for not having security. So it seems you're well and truly damned if you do and damned if you don't.