More on Spelling and Grammar

[Aramant]

Issues of spelling and grammar have been the topic of conversation on this forum in various places for a while now, with no real definitive conclusions made except "we shouldn't mock the errors of others" and "not everyone speaks English as a first language".

On the other hand, comments have also been made along the lines that if one does speak English as his first language, he should strive to type as accurately as possible out of respect for the rest of the forum population perusing the posts (hurray alliteration). I can only assume that these comments take into account and allow for the possibility of typographical errors, accepting the fact that most people don't feel inclined to proofread what they've typed into a casual internet discussion forum.

That said, what are we to think of people from Canada, England, or the United States who assumedly do speak English as a first language, and yet whose posts are rife with errors that appear to stem from sheer laziness or disregard? The allowances for French Canadians and immigrants (who, while residents of Canada, England, and the United States, may not speak English as a first language) aside, when a person's public profile reads that he's of a certain age and a post-secondary student or some form of professional, should he be expected to adhere to the rules of spelling and grammar to the best of his ability? And as a couple of somewhat related questions: at what age should it be assumed that a person has mastery of a language, if at all; and should a person's education and profession be an acceptable measure of his ability to speak and spell?

Additionally, why is it apparently acceptable to use internet acronyms ("LOL", "OMG", "IMHO", et cetera), which could conceivably be viewed as grammatically incorrect, but leetspeak and language errors in general are apparently frowned upon? The argument that, as this is an internet forum, such acronyms are to be expected is rather weak. Leetspeak is fairly predominant on the internet, so shouldn't that be expected here? Likewise spelling errors.

With further regard to leetspeak, I've seen one or two posts in my casual browsing of this forum that seem to suggest that it is simply not allowed, and as one of these posts was entered by a moderator, it would appear as though this is some kind of official rule. However, I've read the general forum rules and the Speak Your Mind forum rules, and neither include any prohibition of leetspeak. Additionally, neither mention anything regarding spelling or grammar, in any capacity.

Regardless, if a moderator chooses to enforce an unofficial prohibition of leetspeak, I imagine we are to assume that this prohibition is valid. Moderators are moderators for a reason, and it should be believed that they know what they're doing. I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise. However, I can only assume that the prohibition of leetspeak is a matter of ensuring an increased clarity of posts entered, so readers don't have to struggle to understand what has been typed. That said, if a person, who should by all accounts have a firm grasp on the English language, types so horribly that the meaning of what he's typed is obscured at best, shouldn't we be allowed to expect a moderator to step in and request some concerted effort to tidy things up?

Again, I understand that a good number of people on this forum have English as a second, third, or further language, and that some measure of understanding is required. I also realize that to date there are no rules to regulate spelling or grammar. However, there are also no rules regarding leetspeak, yet that seems to be unofficially regulated by people with authority.

Finally, I'd like to make clear that with this post I am not trying to insult anyone or make any sort of complaint, specific or otherwise. This is just something I've been thinking about, and I thought it worth posting.

[CM]

Personally i have a live and let live policy. Freedom of speech is central as long as you are responsible. So no racism no foul language etc. Leetspeak is fine in moderation in my personal opinion. But as i don't speak it i don't care.

Secondly i don't care about spelling. Many people are in a hurry when posting and do so carelessly. This is not school. This is not work. Perfect spelling should not matter.

Thirdly how is having incorrect spelling an insult to the members of a forum?

[Cuchulain82]

One of the things that I like most about GB is the articulate nature of most of the people here. I personally don't like leetspeak (I don't understand it very well- maybe we should have a definition thread??). However, this is a casual place so if there are a few mispeelings from time to times, I'm sure everyone will understand. (I agree with Aramant in that there's no need for rules nazis in internet forums)

[dragon wench]

There is a difference between 'leetspeak' and acronyms like 'OMG'

Leetspeak is practically a different language understood by a fairly small percentage of forum members (at least here, I can't say for other forums). The acronyms are not that difficult to figure out, and they are easily picked up.

[ik911]

Leetspeak involves the overusage of certain acronyms like OMG (LMAO, ROFL, LOL, FFS, etc.) and replacing certain or all letters for alternatives (E=3, I=1, Z=2, S=5 etc.). There's varieties. I'm not an expert, though. I once found it on urbandictionary.com

[Aramant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CM Thirdly how is having incorrect spelling an insult to the members of a forum?

The only mention of insult I made above is to say that my post was not an attempt to insult anyone. I said that incorrect spelling is apparently viewed as disrespectful to the people reading the post. I based this on having read someone else's post that stated that opinion nearly verbatim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon wench There is a difference between 'leetspeak' and acronyms like 'OMG' Leetspeak is practically a different language understood by a fairly small percentage of forum members (at least here, I can't say for other forums). The acronyms are not that difficult to figure out, and they are easily picked up.

I realize there's a difference, and I wasn't trying to say that leetspeak and internet acronyms are the same thing. My point was that acronyms can be viewed as grammatically improper, like leetspeak, and incorrect spelling.

Additionally, some leetspeak is easily picked up as well. A zero is clearly an "O", for example.

[dragon wench]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramant I realize there's a difference, and I wasn't trying to say that leetspeak and internet acronyms are the same thing. My point was that acronyms can be viewed as grammatically improper, like leetspeak, and incorrect spelling. Additionally, some leetspeak is easily picked up as well. A zero is clearly an "O", for example.

I suspect that part of it is simply a matter of "tradition" and "culture." Time tends to move quickly on the internet, and acronyms have historical precedent. We have created acronyms in the English language (and many others) for years, not just in Internet usage but also more generally.
I'm guessing that as a result acronyms have far more immediate social acceptance.

I treat acronyms as grammatically acceptable. When you write an academic paper, the rule is that the first time you use an acronym, you do it like so:
"Harry discovered he actually was not an arrogant poser, and in relief he dropped to the ground rolling on the floor laughing (ROFL)."

You have to explain the acronym by using brackets the first time, and then you can use it on its own thereafter.
When posting here, I (and likely most other people) assume that almost everyone already knows what the acronyms mean, and therefore the explanation becomes redundant.

[winter rose]

Actually Ive noticed that the writing here is not all that bad - grammar wise and all.I do use "lol" and "omg", but thats probably it.As for the rest, I prefer typing out my posts with rules that are agreeable with grammar and spelling.It gets on my nerves if I make typos or do not write correctly.

[Aramant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon wench When posting here, I (and likely most other people) assume that almost everyone already knows what the acronyms mean, and therefore the explanation becomes redundant.

It could be argued that a misspelled word, if close enough to the correct spelling, will still be known by almost everyone on the forum. It's still an error.

[Aramant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by winter rose Actually Ive noticed that the writing here is not all that bad - grammar wise and all.I do use "lol" and "omg", but thats probably it.As for the rest, I prefer typing out my posts with rules that are agreeable with grammar and spelling.It gets on my nerves if I make typos or do not write correctly.

... says the lady with no spaces between periods and the beginning of the next sentence.

For the record, the above is meant to be taken as humorous, playful teasing. I'd have put in a smilie, but I don't like to use them.

[winter rose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramant ... says the lady with no spaces between periods and the beginning of the next sentence. For the record, the above is meant to be taken as humorous, playful teasing. I'd have put in a smilie, but I don't like to use them.

I forgot to add Im not perfect.

No problem. I also do not use commas very often. You missed that. (CM's been trying to get me to do those spaces, let see what happens.)

I was reffering more to typing out entire words and so on. I never mentioned details otherwise.

[dragon wench]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramant It could be argued that a misspelled word, if close enough to the correct spelling, will still be known by almost everyone on the forum. It's still an error.

Perhaps. However, to carry my above example further, if you hand in a paper in which you have properly explained your acronyms you won't have points deducted. Grammar and spelling errors do result in a lower grade. The one is acceptable and correct, the other is not. It's really quite simple.

Anyway, believe what you will. *shrug*

[Aramant]

Again, I was just teasing.

For the most part, I don't overly care about formal errors, tyographical errors, or errors in general when some effort has apparently been made. What bugs me is when a person obviously doesn't care about what he's doing, or when he intentionally misspells a word for no apparently valid reason. For example "dat" for "that". Granted there are less keystrokes, but "kewl" for "cool" is just ridiculous.

For me personally, I don't feel disrespected when someone fails to adhere to the rules of the English language. It's just a matter of annoyance to know that someone just frankly doesn't care to make the effort. However, my original post was meant to be a somewhat objective discussion on the matter, not simply an expression of my personal pet peeves (hurray more alliteration).

[winter rose]

dat" for "that" - that definately gets on my nerves too. However, some people prefer to talk in that manner. I dont think its such a great issue, its not as if we're being marked on our posts.

I guess I might shock you out of your wits if I mention that Im a teacher.

[Aramant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by winter rose I guess I might shock out of your wits if I mention that Im a teacher.

Very little shocks me anymore. I have been jaded by education!

Would it shock you if I mention that I hate English courses?