More on Spelling and Grammar
 

Issues of spelling and grammar have been the topic of conversation on this forum in various places for a while now, with no real definitive conclusions made except "we shouldn't mock the errors of others" and "not everyone speaks English as a first language".

On the other hand, comments have also been made along the lines that if one does speak English as his first language, he should strive to type as accurately as possible out of respect for the rest of the forum population perusing the posts (hurray alliteration). I can only assume that these comments take into account and allow for the possibility of typographical errors, accepting the fact that most people don't feel inclined to proofread what they've typed into a casual internet discussion forum.

That said, what are we to think of people from Canada, England, or the United States who assumedly do speak English as a first language, and yet whose posts are rife with errors that appear to stem from sheer laziness or disregard? The allowances for French Canadians and immigrants (who, while residents of Canada, England, and the United States, may not speak English as a first language) aside, when a person's public profile reads that he's of a certain age and a post-secondary student or some form of professional, should he be expected to adhere to the rules of spelling and grammar to the best of his ability? And as a couple of somewhat related questions: at what age should it be assumed that a person has mastery of a language, if at all; and should a person's education and profession be an acceptable measure of his ability to speak and spell?

Additionally, why is it apparently acceptable to use internet acronyms ("LOL", "OMG", "IMHO", et cetera), which could conceivably be viewed as grammatically incorrect, but leetspeak and language errors in general are apparently frowned upon? The argument that, as this is an internet forum, such acronyms are to be expected is rather weak. Leetspeak is fairly predominant on the internet, so shouldn't that be expected here? Likewise spelling errors.

With further regard to leetspeak, I've seen one or two posts in my casual browsing of this forum that seem to suggest that it is simply not allowed, and as one of these posts was entered by a moderator, it would appear as though this is some kind of official rule. However, I've read the general forum rules and the Speak Your Mind forum rules, and neither include any prohibition of leetspeak. Additionally, neither mention anything regarding spelling or grammar, in any capacity.

Regardless, if a moderator chooses to enforce an unofficial prohibition of leetspeak, I imagine we are to assume that this prohibition is valid. Moderators are moderators for a reason, and it should be believed that they know what they're doing. I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise. However, I can only assume that the prohibition of leetspeak is a matter of ensuring an increased clarity of posts entered, so readers don't have to struggle to understand what has been typed. That said, if a person, who should by all accounts have a firm grasp on the English language, types so horribly that the meaning of what he's typed is obscured at best, shouldn't we be allowed to expect a moderator to step in and request some concerted effort to tidy things up?

Again, I understand that a good number of people on this forum have English as a second, third, or further language, and that some measure of understanding is required. I also realize that to date there are no rules to regulate spelling or grammar. However, there are also no rules regarding leetspeak, yet that seems to be unofficially regulated by people with authority.

Finally, I'd like to make clear that with this post I am not trying to insult anyone or make any sort of complaint, specific or otherwise. This is just something I've been thinking about, and I thought it worth posting.

Personally i have a live and let live policy. Freedom of speech is central as long as you are responsible. So no racism no foul language etc. Leetspeak is fine in moderation in my personal opinion. But as i don't speak it i don't care.

Secondly i don't care about spelling. Many people are in a hurry when posting and do so carelessly. This is not school. This is not work. Perfect spelling should not matter.

Thirdly how is having incorrect spelling an insult to the members of a forum?

One of the things that I like most about GB is the articulate nature of most of the people here. I personally don't like leetspeak (I don't understand it very well- maybe we should have a definition thread??). However, this is a casual place so if there are a few mispeelings from time to times, I'm sure everyone will understand. (I agree with Aramant in that there's no need for rules nazis in internet forums)

There is a difference between 'leetspeak' and acronyms like 'OMG'

Leetspeak is practically a different language understood by a fairly small percentage of forum members (at least here, I can't say for other forums). The acronyms are not that difficult to figure out, and they are easily picked up.

Leetspeak involves the overusage of certain acronyms like OMG (LMAO, ROFL, LOL, FFS, etc.) and replacing certain or all letters for alternatives (E=3, I=1, Z=2, S=5 etc.). There's varieties. I'm not an expert, though. I once found it on urbandictionary.com

The only mention of insult I made above is to say that my post was not an attempt to insult anyone. I said that incorrect spelling is apparently viewed as disrespectful to the people reading the post. I based this on having read someone else's post that stated that opinion nearly verbatim.

I realize there's a difference, and I wasn't trying to say that leetspeak and internet acronyms are the same thing. My point was that acronyms can be viewed as grammatically improper, like leetspeak, and incorrect spelling.

Additionally, some leetspeak is easily picked up as well. A zero is clearly an "O", for example.

I suspect that part of it is simply a matter of "tradition" and "culture." Time tends to move quickly on the internet, and acronyms have historical precedent. We have created acronyms in the English language (and many others) for years, not just in Internet usage but also more generally.
I'm guessing that as a result acronyms have far more immediate social acceptance.

I treat acronyms as grammatically acceptable. When you write an academic paper, the rule is that the first time you use an acronym, you do it like so:
"Harry discovered he actually was not an arrogant poser, and in relief he dropped to the ground rolling on the floor laughing (ROFL)."

You have to explain the acronym by using brackets the first time, and then you can use it on its own thereafter.
When posting here, I (and likely most other people) assume that almost everyone already knows what the acronyms mean, and therefore the explanation becomes redundant.

Actually Ive noticed that the writing here is not all that bad - grammar wise and all.I do use "lol" and "omg", but thats probably it.As for the rest, I prefer typing out my posts with rules that are agreeable with grammar and spelling.It gets on my nerves if I make typos or do not write correctly.

It could be argued that a misspelled word, if close enough to the correct spelling, will still be known by almost everyone on the forum. It's still an error.

... says the lady with no spaces between periods and the beginning of the next sentence.

For the record, the above is meant to be taken as humorous, playful teasing. I'd have put in a smilie, but I don't like to use them.

I forgot to add Im not perfect.

No problem. I also do not use commas very often. You missed that. (CM's been trying to get me to do those spaces, let see what happens.)

I was reffering more to typing out entire words and so on. I never mentioned details otherwise.

Perhaps. However, to carry my above example further, if you hand in a paper in which you have properly explained your acronyms you won't have points deducted. Grammar and spelling errors do result in a lower grade. The one is acceptable and correct, the other is not. It's really quite simple.

Anyway, believe what you will. *shrug*

Again, I was just teasing.

For the most part, I don't overly care about formal errors, tyographical errors, or errors in general when some effort has apparently been made. What bugs me is when a person obviously doesn't care about what he's doing, or when he intentionally misspells a word for no apparently valid reason. For example "dat" for "that". Granted there are less keystrokes, but "kewl" for "cool" is just ridiculous.

For me personally, I don't feel disrespected when someone fails to adhere to the rules of the English language. It's just a matter of annoyance to know that someone just frankly doesn't care to make the effort. However, my original post was meant to be a somewhat objective discussion on the matter, not simply an expression of my personal pet peeves (hurray more alliteration).

dat" for "that" - that definately gets on my nerves too. However, some people prefer to talk in that manner. I dont think its such a great issue, its not as if we're being marked on our posts.

I guess I might shock you out of your wits if I mention that Im a teacher. :p

Very little shocks me anymore. I have been jaded by education!

Would it shock you if I mention that I hate English courses?

The "rule" against leet-speak (or l337-sp34k ... and yes I can read real ordinary leet... don't ask :D) is due to the same facts as the "rule" against other langauges. This forum is international, but the owner and administrator is US. Thus the language to be used is english. There is no rule for this, but it is simply common knowlegde and curtesy, that if you post on this - you post in english
Also it is a matter of "moderating", because it is hard/impossible for moderators to moderate posts in a language they can't read/write.

Eventhough leet speak isn't really a langauge, it is still not understood or read (easily) by others, which is its intention. Thus it is deliberate posting something which isn't easily readable, and thus it falls into the same league as posting in other langauges, and thus it will get moderated (especially by me I'm sure) on most occasions (with a few exception)
"0m9 7h1z 1z t3h r0x0r" - is not easily readable to all compared to a normal post with normal amount of errors (whether they be typos or mistakes).

Where this differentiate from spelling errors/typos and similar, is that such mistakes are rarely intentional made to obscure the meaning of a post. (which is often the case with leet-speak)
While they might be confusing and directly misleading - they are rarely intentional. And thus, they can't be clasiffied in the same league as "leet" speak or another langauge, and should in my very strong opinion, not be moderated excatly because of this.
I am not even a great speller on my own national language, and less so on english, and for me to start having to moderate/correct or even remark on others spelling is a very far notion from me.

I understand that spelling errors/typos can be annoying for people who have english as a primary language, but we also have to remember the context of the situation. This is not some dissertation for a higher education, nor even a fith grade essay. It is an Internet forum where we debate/discuss/socialise across national borders and age groups. People are not likely going to run their normal standard posts through a gramma-/spellchecker the majority of the times. Then most would rather just avoid posting alltogether.

That's what I wanted to comment, too. 'lol', 'omg' and such are well-known and frequently used terms in SYM by noobs and old members too (I risk that even Fable uses them, and that settles the matter :p), I think they just make it faster to describe different reactions. There are only a couple of them, ater all.

I think so too. They also often have a bit more punch.

For example:

"OMG! :eek:"

Seems to have slightly more visual impact than:

"Oh my God! :eek:"

I think the short punchiness somehow scores a more direct hit. Though, this kind of stuff is always highly subjective.

As much as anything it is a way to express emotion, laughter etc. in a virtual world where we lack face-to-face presence and sound.

I didn't mean my original post to suggest that I frown upon acronyms. I just mentioned them to make a point. It was sort of a case of playing devil's advocate, or something like that. I have nothing against their use by others, personally. I don't use them myself, but that's just yet another matter of personal taste.

"...and thus the mighty are brought low by the feeble-minded"

I am possessed of the opinion that laziness is not a good excuse for bad grammar, spelling or punctuation but mistakes born through fast typing and unfamiliarity with the language are. This is not to say that I'd rather peoiple didn't do it- well, actually I would- but I am a supporter of free speech and as long as what one is saying can be understood by the reader then I have no problem with it.