Men, Women and BG (1 and 2)

[dragon wench]

I decided to start up this post since this subject brought the "best male NPC body" (in the BG2 forum) thread so far afield. For those who have not been following that thread, the question arose as to how well can men and women understand one another.
I also propose here another question in an effort to pull it closer to the game, "when you respond to a particular npc, do you do so on a physical, emotional or intellectual level?"

[Brink]

dragon wench-Welcome to SYM .Do enjoy your stay here

[fable]

@Brink's right, Dragon wench. Glad you found your way over here. Pull up a drink, take some virtual food from one of the passing trays (it's all free, you know), and spam to your heart's delight.

[Loredweller]

Quote:

Originally posted by dragon wench: <STRONG> ... how well can men and women understand one another ... </STRONG>

The question, IMHO, is solved quite well. The humankind isn't extinct, after all

Quote:

Originally posted by dragon wench: <STRONG> I also propose here another question in an effort to pull it closer to the game, "when you respond to a particular npc, do you do so on a physical, emotional or intellectual level?"</STRONG>

Can there be separation in any way? I definitely have to click left mouse button (physical), i enjoy the game (emotional) and i read the text on the screen (intellectual)

The next is pure emotional
Glad to see you again,
L.

[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: Loredweller ]

[Manveru]

IMHO i.e. in BG2 there was made a really huge progress in comparison with BG1 - I'm thinking now mainly about interactions with NPC.

It is just impossible that I can really hate some NPCs because of their character (Viconia, Anomen), to be angry on Irenicus every time he wins and succeds in his schemes or finally to be enchanted by Jaheira. Though from logical point of view they don't exist - they are just a collection of bytes (pictures, sounds, some text and instructions for them) that could be easily destroyed by erasing/switching off the computer.

So from the emotional point of view there was done real progress in developing Virtual reality .

About intellectual advantages : I learn many things about using computers during my customization efforts.

[scully1]

dragon wench --

I've said this in the "male npc" post, but I'll elaborate here if you don't mind

I believe it is possible for men and women to understand one another...IF, and ONLY if, we get rid of the idea we've fabricated that it ISN'T possible. We've convinced ourselves that it isn't...probably because we haven't taken the time or made the effort, being preoccupied with our own concerns...

If I may be permitted, I'd like to bring a bit of a different perspective to this. I too am earning my Master's degree, in biblical studies. Now before I start I'd like to make a disclaimer that I am NOT trying to "convert" anyone or foist my beliefs on others...I'm just trying to bring out an idea.

In the book of Genesis, you have the familiar story of Adam and Eve. I do not believe that this story is literally/historically true...in fact, if one sees it as such, one misses completely the depth and beauty of the real truth it tries to teach us. THere are actually two accounts of creation. The second one is where you find Eve being created from Adam's rib. Now, most (or at least many) people find this insulting. They think it says that woman should be subservient to man. But that is not the case at all! Listen to what Adam says when he gets a look at Eve for the first time:
"This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one shall be called 'woman,' for out of 'her man' this one has been taken" ("her man" and "woman" being a Semitic play on words), Gn 2:23.
Now, I think this is amazing, much more profound than most give it credit for. Indeed, one of the most beautiful passages in the entire Bible. Eve does indeed "belong" to Adam by virtue of being created from him -- but Adam also "belongs" to Eve ("her man") for the exact same reason. The truth this story teaches us is that man and woman are one, one being, sharing one life, one heart, and one spirit. This applies to the entire human race, not just to two individuals, and not just to romantic relationships. This being the case, it is actually not possible at all for us NOT to understand one another! We've simply set up too many mental/emotional blocks. These blocks are not natural, they are our own creation.

I deeply believe that if we saw the truth of this -- no matter what our religious beliefs of the lack thereof -- men and women wouldn't misunderstand and hurt one another as much as we do. Because, from this point of view, when a man hurts a woman he hurts his own self, and when a woman hurts a man, she does the same. If we understood and accepted this, we would see the opposite sex as something to be cherished as our own selves, not stereotyped and looked upon as objects. (That's a little off-topic, but I add it as an extension...)

I defer of course to the gender scholar , but thanks in advance for hearing me out with an open mind

long post

[Darkpoet]

Quote:

Originally posted by dragon wench: <STRONG>I decided to start up this post since this subject brought the "best male NPC body" (in the BG2 forum) thread so far afield. For those who have not been following that thread, the question arose as to how well can men and women understand one another. I also propose here another question in an effort to pull it closer to the game, "when you respond to a particular npc, do you do so on a physical, emotional or intellectual level?"</STRONG>

Welcome to the spam forum.

That's an interesting question. I have to go with all three. If they were not strong in all three, you would be looking at eveything behind a tree.

[dragon wench]

Thanks for the welcome all
I intend to add further to this discussion, but I just woke up and discovered to my intense chagrin that we are out of coffee, which means that I won't be functioning for a while.

[Darkpoet]

Quote:

Originally posted by dragon wench: <STRONG>Thanks for the welcome all I intend to add further to this discussion, but I just woke up and discovered to my intense chagrin that we are out of coffee, which means that I won't be functioning for a while.</STRONG>

What!?!?!? No coffee

[Minerva]

Quote:

Originally posted by dragon wench: <STRONG>I also propose here another question in an effort to pull it closer to the game, "when you respond to a particular npc, do you do so on a physical, emotional or intellectual level?"</STRONG>

I prefer real people (or men, if you want to talk about "relationship") than computer generated characters. I certainly have neither time nor intereste in interacting with npc... Sorry.

Welcome here, anyway.

[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: Minerva ]

[C Elegans]

Hello Dragon wench, welcome to SYM!

My short answer to you first question would be: as well or bad as any randomly picked people.

My long answer would be ? long:

I read the entire thread "best male NPC body", and was surprised that some posts use words like "instincts", "biology" and "hormones" to explain behavioural differences between men and women acting according to gender role norms and stereotypes only representative of the modern western Christian culture. Of course there is nothing wrong with discussion only one culture and one time, but one has to be aware of the danger in trying to draw any conclusions about men and women in general from behaviour and attitudes that are according to norms and standards in the present US and European culture. There is a huge difference between physiological sex and gender roles in a certain society during a certain point of time. Sometimes people seems to forget that the present norms in our own society might differ substantially from other cultures or other times.

Now to understanding. I would define understanding between people as a mutual feeling of being akin, alike, of sharing experience, ideas, values etc.

What factors would contribute to the experience of understanding? I believe a key word here is *interpretation*. You can put people from different culture and different times in the same situation, and they will experience different things due to how they interpret the event. A man and a women from the same time and culture will probably understand each other much better than let's say a man living in a big European city and a man living in the rainforests of New Guinea.
There are about 3 billion men and 3 billion women populating this planet presently. As humans, we all share common drives and needs like food, drink, social relationships, reproduction, love, understanding the world we live in, etc. I don't believe there are any innate differences between men and women in these areas, but according to sociocultural roles, expectations and norms, *channels for expressions* will differ at a group level, just as they do differ across culture, time or age.

Personally, I have never experienced that a person understands me better, or I them, because we share biological sex. My feeling of identity and view of myself consisists mostly of life events and experience, my way of conceptualising and viewing the world in general, social context, personal interests, moral values and social relationships. I have never felt these things are better understood by females than males. Sometimes the opposite happens, that a woman or a group of women understands me more poorly since they assume I should be like them, whereas men don?t automatically believe I should be like them. (How many times haven't I heard the generalised expressions "we women..." are this and that and found myself and many women I know not at all fitting into the description.)

In the end, I believe that degree of understanding between all people, is a question of what you are choose to focus on and if you view yourself and others mainly as individuals or as group members with group attributes.

Of course all of the above is just my personal opinions!

[fable]

@Minerva: I prefer real people (or men, if you want to talk about "relationship") than computer generated characters. I certainly have neither time nor intereste in interacting with npc... Sorry.

I agree with Minerva on the point about reacting to NPCs. I enjoy the good writing and attempts at bringing "to life" a character in BG2, but I never suspend disbelief sufficiently to think I'm dealing with a person on any level. That's probably because I think each person in reallife is a universe in themselves, which is, parenthetically, why love as an attractive force can be such a f**ked up mess. It's like moving from the established boundaries of one's own universe into another based on entirely different referential terms, in no way alike, yet disturbingly similar: exhilirating, frightening, invasive, frustrating, wonderful. Nothing cleans away the cobwebs of mental and emotional habit like love.

That really didn't answer your question, did I? Well, I hope the view on the ride was at least worth part of the ticket.

[C Elegans]

Oh sorry, I forgot your second question. I can't relate physically to computer animations. I mainly react emotionally (Tolgerias is a creep, let's hit him) or intellectually (when deciding who would be in the party and not).

[Craig]

Emotional

[dragon wench]

@Loner 72: I think that the idea of man being as much a part woman as the reverse is a very compelling one. It reminds me a lot of ying and yang; we are two distinct, yet similar halves of one whole. Indeed, it are those very differences that balance the two halves and create the whole. Thank you for sharing that part of Genesis with us , I haven't studied the Bible very extensively, but I'm always interested in learning about different religious perspectives. What I find fascinating is the sheer universality of some of those beliefs.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, because I'm truly wading out of familiar territory, but wasn't it Saint Paul, and later Saint Augustine, that lessoned the concept of gender balance that tends to be found moreso in the Old Testement???? As I said, I'm way out of my depths here, this is just coming from odd fragments lurking around the old grey matter. Although, I do remember that when I read Augustine's "Confessions" I became very angry at his views on women.

@C.Elegans I think that the reason this thread (and the one that spawned it) tends to focus on Western constructs is simply because the majority of us are most familiar with Euro/North American culture(s). I certainly agree though that class and culture generally override gender. This is one of my biggest criticisms of 1970s feminism. They tried to promote the idea that all women, regardless of race, creed, class or culture were automatically part of some kind of universal "sisterhood." That, in my opinion anyway, is utter crap. Clearly, a professional woman living in urban North America or Europe has very little in common with a rural woman from one of the world's developing nations.

Regarding the second question: I proposed it out of curiosity, because I was trying to figure out why a certain computer generated mage/thief annoyed me so much. I mean it's only a game, so why worry about it?
I also find the whole concept of the BG2 romances truly bizarre. They are a neat feature, and I find it quite easy to become intrigued by them, and then I sit back and think, this is just very strange. I was also interested in seeing if men and women responded differently to the NPCs. For example, from what I can tell women are generally more tolerant of BG2's Anomen than are men. *hence why I included it in a gender-related discussion).