Is Religion a good thing or a bad thing?

[Fljotsdale]

Following a suggestion by Fable that I start a THOUGHTFUL thread on this topic!

My own personal opinion is that religion is, in many ways, a bad thing. It stifles thought and progress, it lives largely in the past and would prefer the laity to accept the tenets of the particular faith (or sect of a faith) without question.
I am not claiming that BELIEVERS are bad people; on the contrary, many believers are good and sincere people.

It is RELIGION, in and of itself, that is harmful, and the various gods mankind believes in are reprehensible. One only has to read holy books with open eyes, and examine the role of religion in history to see the harm it has done.

Granted, much of the harm caused by religion is because of the behaviour of corrupt or fanatical religious leaders; but in many cases the corrupt religious leaders have done nothing but follow the example set by their gods. (For example, the god the ancient Hebrews believed in told them to enter the Promised Land and driveout the inhabitants, and of the Amalekites "man, woman and little child" were to be killed off. In effect, they were ordered to commit genocide by their god).
And if the gods do bad things, can their clerics and those who listen to them be blamed?

Remember, this is to be a THOUGHTFUL thread!

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Are we including Buddhism etc as part of this discussion, or sticking to the more (Western) traditional grounds of the Abrahamic Three (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)?
Only deistic religions (the above plus a few others, i.e. Hinduism)?
Wicca?
Paganism?
Cults?

I'm quite fond of the Baha'i faith as far as deistic religions go, but I'm an absurdist mystic myself and that's less religion than spirituality. As far as affiliated religions go I'm also a Pastafarian, but that's mostly for the great Heaven, loose morals, and pirate theme.

[dragon wench]

Same question as Ode, really...

To be honest... I don't think there's an easy answer to this question..
Religion has been the cause of many global conflicts, it is often used as a tool to repress others (particularly women), it has frequently stifled ideas and learning...
But still, I balk at coming out and saying religion is entirely a bad thing.... this line of thought can lead to paths I'm not really comfortable with.

[galraen]

Religions are only as bad, or good, as the people who invented it and those that administer it.

To say

Quote:

the god the ancient Hebrews believed in told them to enter the Promised Land and driveout the inhabitants, and of the Amalekites "man, woman and little child" were to be killed off

and blame the god ignores the fact that the ancient Hebrews invented their god and put the words into his mouth. The blame lies with the inventors, not their invention.

So to say all religion is bad is, in my opinion, to say that all people are bad, and that I can't subscribe to. Religious people have been the cause of a great many of the worlds ills, and still are, but not all of them by any stretch of the imagination.

[Nightmare]

Quote:

Originally Posted by galraen Religions are only as bad, or good, as the people who invented it and those that administer it.

Sort of sums up my opinion rather nicely.

I'm personally an atheist, but I honestly don't care what people believe in; as long as they are decent, honest people, why would I care what part of their personality or brain tells them to be so?

I'm sure I have several posts on the boards in old topics about religion, I might dig them up later if I pull myself away from Dragon Age.

[endboss]

Religions are whatever you make them out to be, because they're entirely made up. They were a first attempt at describing and understanding the world. They are all inherently bad because in light of real knowledge they stifle free thought and skepticism as you are forced to place your belief in imaginary beings.

The only true religion lived and died with the Norsemen. Their mythology was purely allegorical, and great Odin looks down upon us even now with our silly genies and jihads and laughs as we take the worse stories from bronze age sheepherders and lazy princes and build our beliefs around them.

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by endboss The only true religion lived and died with the Norsemen. Their mythology was purely allegorical, and great Odin looks down upon us even now with our silly genies and jihads and laughs as we take the worse stories from bronze age sheepherders and lazy princes and build our beliefs around them.

If the Norse culture had only allegorical gods, their people sure built a bunch of allegorical temple areas, had quite a lot of warriors who went through violent allegorical rites of passage involving aligning themselves with one or another deity, and were buried in religiously decorated tombs with full allegorical dogmatic rites.

Sorry, but there's been a considerable amount of research done on Norse deities, including the excavation of religious burial mounds and temple areas (frequently within enormous multi-function dwellings). Their relationship to their gods was nothing like the Greco-Roman or Egyptian traditions, but they certainly did believe in and worship them. And many fled the country when their various rulers demanded they give up their old gods for the new Christian one. There was a quite a "cult" (in the old sense of the word) of worship of the Norse pantheon at one time, stretching across portions of modern France, and covering Great Britain as well as Scandinavia except for Finland.

[endboss]

Am I really that bad at being facetious?

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by endboss Am I really that bad at being facetious?

If your statement reads seriously, as it does here, and you don't use emoticons, then, well--draw your own conclusions. But really, most people don't know anything about Norse pagan worshiping patterns, so why should I assume you do? Hell, I didn't for the longest time, until I ran across some Norse revivalist neo-religion types and their recommendations for academic reading. And you'd better believe those revivalists of all stripes (Greek, Egyptian, etc) go into the scholarly stuff deep.

[Dottie]

I'm going to go against the trend and ask what bad is, instead of "what is religion?"

If bad is to be interpreted as a severe ethical problem then I don't think religion always is bad.

If bad is anything undesireble, ranging from mildly annoying to a severe ethical problem then yes, I think it is.

I don't know if my idea of what a make a religion is accurate, so my guess is that it contains:
1. A moral code of some sort
2. A set of claims about the nature of the world
3. A faith in something spiritual

As far as I can se, number 3 is simply a delusion and number 1 and 2 are nesseccary, but preferably obtained from some kind of constantly ongoing process that is more dynamic and less arbitrary than what is usually the case with religions.

Now, if the size of number 2 is close to zero, and the contents of number 1 is functional then there might not be that much to worry about, but I think you could make a case for the notion that it is rare that religions have these properties and also preserves them over time.

[Fljotsdale]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper Are we including Buddhism etc as part of this discussion, or sticking to the more (Western) traditional grounds of the Abrahamic Three (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)? Only deistic religions (the above plus a few others, i.e. Hinduism)? Wicca? Paganism? Cults? I'm quite fond of the Baha'i faith as far as deistic religions go, but I'm an absurdist mystic myself and that's less religion than spirituality. As far as affiliated religions go I'm also a Pastafarian, but that's mostly for the great Heaven, loose morals, and pirate theme.

Even Buddhists have been known to fight each other! My knowlege of this is derived entirely from Kim by Rudyard Kipling, but I have no reason to suspect the veracity of the claim they they fought each other using pen-cases as weapons. Of course he could have made it up!

But largely, the threee Abrahamic religions are the ones that have caused harm on the largest scale.
However, one cannot ignore the harm gone by centuries of the caste system which appears to be incorporated in the Hindu faith, nor can one ignore the violent natures of many of the gods in non-Abrahamic religions.
I know virtually nothing about Wicca - (the one Wiccan I have knowingly met being the filthiest human being I have ever encountered rather put me off, even though I am fairly sure she must have been an exception) - as for Paganism, there are/have been so many beliefs under that general heading that I can't really comment specifically, but surely pagans of all kinds have hated one another all through human history?

I like the idea of a Pasta-farian!

[Fljotsdale]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon wench Same question as Ode, really... To be honest... I don't think there's an easy answer to this question.. Religion has been the cause of many global conflicts, it is often used as a tool to repress others (particularly women), it has frequently stifled ideas and learning... But still, I balk at coming out and saying religion is entirely a bad thing.... this line of thought can lead to paths I'm not really comfortable with.

Interesting comment. What paths do you have in mind, dragonwench? One that came to my mind, after reading your comment, if people in general turned against religion, might be the hunting down and slaughter of believers, as happened with 'witches' in the past - and still in a very few places even today.

[Fljotsdale]

Quote:

Originally Posted by galraen Religions are only as bad, or good, as the people who invented it and those that administer it. To say and blame the god ignores the fact that the ancient Hebrews invented their god and put the words into his mouth. The blame lies with the inventors, not their invention. So to say all religion is bad is, in my opinion, to say that all people are bad, and that I can't subscribe to. Religious people have been the cause of a great many of the worlds ills, and still are, but not all of them by any stretch of the imagination.

Now this I entirely agree with, galraen! But I take into consideration that people BELIEVE in their gods as real people/entities/spirits/whatever, and believe in the statements of their prophets as the very WORD of their gods; so we have to take it on face value that for believers the gods are real, not invented. Therefore, the statements of the prophets and described behaviour of the god ARE from the mouth of the god, and that therefore, as THE GOD is to be credited with the good that comes from obeying the WORD and conduct of the god, so they must also be blamed for the bad that comes from obeying the WORD and conduct of the god.

[Fljotsdale]

Quote:

Originally Posted by endboss Religions are whatever you make them out to be, because they're entirely made up. They were a first attempt at describing and understanding the world. They are all inherently bad because in light of real knowledge they stifle free thought and skepticism as you are forced to place your belief in imaginary beings. The only true religion lived and died with the Norsemen. Their mythology was purely allegorical, and great Odin looks down upon us even now with our silly genies and jihads and laughs as we take the worse stories from bronze age sheepherders and lazy princes and build our beliefs around them.

I studied Old Icelandic when I was at university, so I read a great many books of Norse history and mythology, and I can tell you that those old gods were right gory buggers, Odin included! I liked his ravens, though.

[Fljotsdale]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottie I'm going to go against the trend and ask what bad is, instead of "what is religion?" If bad is to be interpreted as a severe ethical problem then I don't think religion always is bad. If bad is anything undesireble, ranging from mildly annoying to a severe ethical problem then yes, I think it is. I don't know if my idea of what a make a religion is accurate, so my guess is that it contains: 1. A moral code of some sort 2. A set of claims about the nature of the world 3. A faith in something spiritual As far as I can se, number 3 is simply a delusion and number 1 and 2 are nesseccary, but preferably obtained from some kind of constantly ongoing process that is more dynamic and less arbitrary than what is usually the case with religions. Now, if the size of number 2 is close to zero, and the contents of number 1 is functional then there might not be that much to worry about, but I think you could make a case for the notion that it is rare that religions have these properties and also preserves them over time.

I'm pretty much with you, Dottie.

A moral code is good. It's the only really good thing most religions ever produce. However, it is all too often overshadowed by other factors. Such as greed, expedience, corruption...

Take, for example, the Ten Commandments. Excellent code of conduct, and only improved upon by The Sermon on the Mount. But how many 'practicing' Christians have no real difficulty in stealing odd bits of office equipment, or office time on the internet? How many commit adultery or fornication? How may covet the possessions or partners of others...? There are murderers in prison who consider themselves good christians...

Actually OBEYING the Ten Commandments/Sermon on the Mount or the moral codes of most other religions would produce a word population where there was no war, hunger, poverty, degredation, or harm to the environment. It'd be good.

The other two factors you mention are the things that really overshadow the moral codes, and are the things we hate and kill each other for.