How things should not be

[CM]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/12....ap/index.html

DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- At least six Middle Eastern students studying in Colorado have been jailed in the past 10 days for failing to take enough college classes as required by their student visas.

The students ran into trouble when they showed up to register with U.S. immigration officials, as required by new rules to track foreign students.

When they reported, they were jailed and required to post $5,000 bonds for enrolling in less than 12 hours of college credit.

The Immigration and Naturalization Service says the students are being detained because under-enrollment is a violation of their student visas. The students are not suspected of any other offense.

"We're concerned about the heavy-handed nature of the enforcement and their lack of understanding of their own regulations," said Chris Johnson, director of international education at the University of Colorado at Denver. "Students are being detained unfairly and callously."

One University of Colorado at Denver student was jailed last week because he was one hour shy of a full load after receiving college permission to drop a course, Johnson said.

"I don't believe this is helping us with the war on terrorism," said Mark Hallett, director of international student services at Colorado State University. "We're alienating people who could be our best friends and ambassadors once they return to their countries."

The Middle Eastern students were jailed for up to 48 hours before posting bond. Three attend UCD, two study at CU-Boulder, and one attends Colorado State University.

College officials expect more to be detained during a second round of January registrations at the INS district office in Denver.

Congress ordered federal registrations by December 16 for males 16 and older carrying temporary visas from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya and Sudan -- countries identified by the State Department as having ties to terrorism.

A January 10 deadline is for men from the United Arab Emirates, North Korea, Morocco, Afghanistan and nine other countries. Two more rounds of registrations will follow with the goal of tracking most foreign nationals by 2005.

"As far as the INS is concerned, this system was put in place in Congress to combat the war on terrorism. We're carrying out their wishes. This is a policy issue," said Nina Pruneda, INS regional public affairs officer.

The INS wants to ensure that international students are diligently pursuing a degree, she said.

==============================
It is a shame to see such sovietish style of rules and the like in the land of the free.

[Azmodan]

wow, thats just plaine SICK!... how is that for democracy!?.

[Gruntboy]

No, ramming jet planes into tall buildings is sick. This is just a minor annoyance enforced because of said terror attacks.

The price of peace is eternal vigilance.

Now a dead US soldier in Afghanistan not being mentioned by anyone, compared to detained students... *that's* sick.

[Askal]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gruntboy No, ramming jet planes into tall buildings is sick. This is just a minor annoyance enforced because of said terror attacks. The price of peace is eternal vigilance. Now a dead US soldier in Afghanistan not being mentioned by anyone, compared to detained students... *that's* sick.

@ Gruntboy: Chill...
As far as I see, no one here has trivialized 9-11.
The US is more than a valuable piece of real estate that should be protected at all costs. For many of us outside the US, it is supposed to stand for the idea of fair play and equal opportunity.

I am grateful that there are still people like CM and Azmodan who can recognize injustice when it presents itself. CM defends what makes America worth protecting...it's ideals.

If a law doesn't seem just then I fully expect true Americans to have something to say about it. It's disturbing to see so many Americans suddenly accept without question any measure that mollifies their anger over terrorists. It somehow makes such people "less American" to me.

Peace.

[Taco Magus]

yea that sucks.
i could just imagine going to another country for school. the school screws up my classes and dosent give all the classes i signed up for then i get arrested(insert some other mistake if u like) for not having enuff classes

[Azmodan]

@ Gruntboy, i didn't mean that terrorism weren't sick. but that has nothing to do with these "kids". that is just plain terrorist-paranoia.

[Gruntboy]

I am perfectly cool thank you very much.

Now that you mention it, it does trivialise those and other events. Only today 3 Americans are shot dead in Yemen, 1 at least is a doctor. Where's the discussion (or alarm or perhaps celebration?) thread for that, eh?

So, tough. Profiling works - the basic premise is that terrorists can sign up for classes in the states and then not go to them. If that inconveniences a few people, that's better than an another 9/11.

I have no problem with citizens questioning their government (whatever gave you that idea?) but are you saying then that citizens can't question other citizens, by proxy through their government?

One exception, one inconvenience gets picked on, whilst common events like murder get glossed over. That's just wrong.

[Scayde]

If anyone wants to be upset about something, give this a read.

It is unfortunate that these students were inconvenienced, but let us not forget that the terrorists who attacked us were all here on student visas. I am not saying that they should have been questioned because they fit a "middle Eastern" profile, but because they were here on a visa which was being violated. If a guest in our country is here under false pretense, I want to know about it. I also want a satisfactory explination, or they need to go back home.If you come to my house to say, eat dinner, I had better not find you snooping through my closets while the rest of us are in the dinning room. I agree with Grunty. There is nothing wrong with anyone questioning their government, however, there is also nothing wrong with us questioning either citizens or guests if something seems out of place. Unfortunately, in this day of "political correctness" It is no longer possible for our law inforcement officials to go on a "hunch" or "Gut Instinct" so we have to have these blanket criteria which halls in the biggest catch, where they might catch the ones intended, and throw the rest back. If they make any "common sense" exceptions, a bad guy can come along down the road and be cut loose on a technicality.

[Gwalchmai]

Ignoring the fact that these were Middle-Eastern students detained…

It is simply a visa violation. They came to the US to study, and are expected to take at least a 12 credit course load – about 3 classes. Pretty easy task, actually. If they really wanted to come to the US to hang out and party, rather than study, then they should have gotten a different a different type of visa. I assume these regulations apply to students from Mexico, Australia, and France as well.

Now, considering that they were Middle-Eastern students….

It seems as though they are being profiled. However, it is my understanding that if the US had been enforcing all visa regulations in the months before 9/11, the terrorist attack might have been diminished or prevented. These are visa conditions that were understood when the students applied for them. There should be no surprise that they are now asked to comply or explain themselves.

In my mind, I am not pleased with many of the restrictions of civil liberties promoted by Rumsfeld et. al., but enforcement of existing laws doesn’t bother me at all.

[RandomThug]

@askal

As you are glad there are people like cm and az, I am grateful people like Gruntboy stand up to defend a point of view not favored by many.

@topic..

The United States of America is at war, sure its a complicated and rather unefficient war. But we are at war.

Imagine if those who flew the planes were held up on an inconvienience because of some student visa's being under fufilled. And they didnt make it to the bombing of the twin towers. Wouldn't everyone be happy then. I for one feel sorry for those kids, but not angry against the decision to do what was done. People are being killed every day in numbers we cant or dont want to imagine. While the injustice of some kids on student visa's doesnt bring a tear to my eye, it still holds ground for discusion. So I speak, but the fact is simple. During times of war not everything will be as it should.

Im half asleep and probably making no sense, but anyhow... Thanks once again grunty my friend across the pond.

[Askal]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gruntboy I am perfectly cool thank you very much. Now that you mention it, it does trivialise those and other events. Only today 3 Americans are shot dead in Yemen, 1 at least is a doctor. Where's the discussion (or alarm or perhaps celebration?) thread for that, eh? >>Seems to me that you should have started a thread for that (or any other topic) if you felt the need for it yourself. Somebody spoke their mind and this seems the place to do it. So, tough. Profiling works - the basic premise is that terrorists can sign up for classes in the states and then not go to them. If that inconveniences a few people, that's better than an another 9/11. >>Yes, profiling works. The same way shooting fish in a barrel works, you get the ones you need for dinner and a whole lot extra. Even then, I agree that the US has little choice but to resort to racial profiling. No argument there. However, perhaps they could be less brusque about it. It's easy to support a law if there's no chance in hell you'll ever be subject to it yourself. A little sympathy for those who inadvertently get caught in the system will go a long way in protecting American interests abroad in the long run. I have no problem with citizens questioning their government (whatever gave you that idea?) but are you saying then that citizens can't question other citizens, by proxy through their government? >> I don't know what gave me that idea. Perhaps its the way you seem to indirectly attack people who sympathize with the "inconvenience" of being detained for what other (white) foreign students get away with on a regular basis and manage to confuse it with patriotism...although Lint reminds me that you're from the UK. One exception, one inconvenience gets picked on, whilst common events like murder get glossed over. That's just wrong. >If you read the thread, there were only two replies to the initial topic...hardly "picking on." I am a little disturbed however that a "straw man" argument like the one you put forward seems to gain such easy acceptance...argue on the merits without confusing the issue with emotion and I may have kept my trap shut.

@Random Thug...good point. Free speech rules. We can agree to disagree and still stand for the same ideals. That's what I was talking about it the first place...You said what you said without necessarily diminishing those who dont share your views. I can respect that.

[Askal]

whoa....I didn't realize that what I wrote would also end up being in bold type. Anyway, the parts I wrote in the previous post were the ones marked with a >>>.

[prateek]

Eh, there's the reactionary masses of America for you

I've been getting constant glares because I look middle eastern (I'm Indian)

@Gruntboy-

I am FAR from advocating what those bastards did to our nation; but then again, I'm far from willing to give up individual rights, the very thing that this nation supposedly stands for, in favor of national security.

I'm for the ideals that America stands for, but not neccessarily what America has been doing (although compared to most nations, this place is a blessing)

To get political, I'm a right wing liberterian. I'm not neccessarily fond of socialists, buchanan style facists, etc

[Azmodan]

ok, we are intiteld to different point of weiws.

[Azmodan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwalchmai Ignoring the fact that these were Middle-Eastern students detained… It is simply a visa violation. They came to the US to study, and are expected to take at least a 12 credit course load – about 3 classes. Pretty easy task, actually. If they really wanted to come to the US to hang out and party, rather than study, then they should have gotten a different a different type of visa. I assume these regulations apply to students from Mexico, Australia, and France as well. Now, considering that they were Middle-Eastern students…. It seems as though they are being profiled. However, it is my understanding that if the US had been enforcing all visa regulations in the months before 9/11, the terrorist attack might have been diminished or prevented. These are visa conditions that were understood when the students applied for them. There should be no surprise that they are now asked to comply or explain themselves. In my mind, I am not pleased with many of the restrictions of civil liberties promoted by Rumsfeld et. al., but enforcement of existing laws doesn’t bother me at all.

why is there a difference?!.... all middle-easterns are not terrorists, and all terrorists are not middle-eastern.

I am not on the other hand forgetting all the death here, neither US or Afghanistan. and i am not saying that Osama is cool, he is a murderer..no less.
i just think that this profiling terrorist thing is paranoia.
and the US is intiteld to paranoid... but the profiling is kinda scary, i would like to say that i lived in a world where i wouldent be put in jail for looking like a perhaps-terrorist, and on somebodys gut-instinct.