Frank Zappa on Crossfire - 1986

[Vicsun]

I felt the urge to share this.

"You've got to get out more"

"I love it when you froth like that."


Also present in the video are Robert Novak and John Lofton playing the roles of the good cop and bad cop, respectively. Note the relevance of the discussion twenty years later.

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicsun I felt the urge to share this. Also present in the video are Robert Novak and John Lofton playing the roles of the good cop and bad cop, respectively. Note the relevance of the discussion twenty years later.

No, it's Tom Braiden and Robert Novak, as good cop and bad cop. I don't think Novak has ever played good cop, at least not to anybody who was politically to the left of Attila the Hun.

Braiden was an excellent co-host, by the way, and is decidedly missed. He was an old-style US liberal but with heavy government credentials and clearances, a self-deprecating sense of humor, and keen sense of logic.

Glad you found this, by the way.

[Vicsun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable No, it's Tom Braiden and Robert Novak, as good cop and bad cop. I don't think Novak has ever played good cop, at least not to anybody who was politically to the left of Attila the Hun. Braiden was an excellent co-host, by the way, and is decidedly missed. He was an old-style US liberal but with heavy government credentials and clearances, a self-deprecating sense of humor, and keen sense of logic. Glad you found this, by the way.

Come now, Novak was so much better behaved than Lofton, who kept interrupting Zappa, resorted to petty name-calling and at one point compared rock music to Hitler. Tom Braiden doesn't fit into my analogy at all, since wasn't a scumbag, and it's a well known fact that both participants in a good cop/bad cop scenario have to be scumbags, with one being less of a scumbag than the other.

edit: I also found it strange that Zappa described himself as conservative - has the meaning of the word conservative really changed so much in the last two decades?

[Rookierookie]

I really must read less computer magazines, because the instant I saw the word "Crossfire" I thought about graphics cards.

[Fiona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicsun edit: I also found it strange that Zappa described himself as conservative - has the meaning of the word conservative really changed so much in the last two decades?

I can't prove it but I think it has. In the UK in the past I think conservatives were economically free marketeers and socially liberal. To some extent the social freedoms were best defended by them, since they took the view that it was no business of the state to interfere in how people lived their lives. Zappa would fit into that kind of stance, ("I have made millions" suggests support for the market etc; and his insistence on freedom of speech is the other plank of the position). The labour party ( nearest the UK had to any kind of mainstream left wing) were economically centrist; but there is a strong thread of non-conformist religion in the mix and they were arguably socially less liberal. So far as I know this underpinned a lot of the state intervention in social life, eg. anti-racist legislation which curtailed free speech.

I am not taking a stand on which is better, by the way. Just trying to see what those words might have meant at the time

This appears to have changed over the last two decades, with the increased influence of the religious right. (not sure that is the source, but it seems to be a partial explanation). Conservatives of the old school still exist, as do traditional socialists. But both have been marginalised to some extent, and there is now a concensus on the free market and heavy social control.

I don't know if that makes much sense of the question you asked?

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicsun Come now, Novak was so much better behaved than Lofton, who kept interrupting Zappa, resorted to petty name-calling and at one point compared rock music to Hitler. Tom Braiden doesn't fit into my analogy at all, since wasn't a scumbag, and it's a well known fact that both participants in a good cop/bad cop scenario have to be scumbags, with one being less of a scumbag than the other.

Oh, I see what you mean: not as a pair of moderators, but simply one guest and one moderator who detest Zappa, and are trying to get at him from different angles.

Quote:

edit: I also found it strange that Zappa described himself as conservative - has the meaning of the word conservative really changed so much in the last two decades?

Zappa was absolutely anti-recreational drugs down the line, with stiff penalties. He was also opposed to US involvement in foreign wars--a traditionally conservative stance. He didn't want income tax dollars going to such matters as a huge, offensive army--again, a conservative view. Zappa wasn't a true conservative, however; there were other views he disagreed with that a conservative would hold. But he was almost certainly (in myview) using this as a stalking horse to draw questions.

[Moonbiter]

Ah, memories. The PMRC (Parents Music Research Center.) Tipper Gore and other senator's wives fronting the organization The Washington Wives, trying to pull a "McCarthy Witch Hunt" on the American music industry, and partially succeeding. Though what they did was to just give kids a surefire way to find out what music they wanted to buy: The "Parental Advisory" sticker glued to the cover. Frank Zappa, Blackie Lawless, Dee Snider, even John Denver(!) having to defend themselves in Senate hearings while the rest of the world looked on in disbelief. Today, twenty+ years later, nothing much has changed.

[Obsidian]

That was fascinating. Glad I took the time to watch it.

I thought Zappa did very well. Lofton was being... ridiculous. Almost scary. He made very little logical sense, and I'm not sure he was even trying to debate so much as belittle.

[Vicsun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonbiter Today, twenty+ years later, nothing much has changed.

It has, though. I know it's cool to be cynical nowadays, but I honestly think things have changed for the better - I don't believe any artwork can be censored on the grounds of obscenity today.