fable's Q&A on classical music

[fable]

Originally Posted by Kree

Anyway, this is another personal question but what makes an 'epic' piece for you? Strong string ensemble, woodwind??? (for me its brass, as you know lol)

There's no traditional use of the word "epic" in classical music, though I've seen it applied to works that are large in scope (compared to others in the same genre). Examples would be Wagner's Ring Cycle of four operas, Gliere's Ilya Murometz Symphony, and Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, which takes a pianist four hours to play. These aren't merely long works, however. They are also epic in the sense that they deal with largescale structures, and in two cases, have ties to important literary works.

Can you also recommend some pieces which you would consider 'epic' in a sense that it seems absolutely humongous and strong (I think a high tempo is most important for me)

Have you considered a CD of opera and incidental music overtures? Overtures tend to employ tempos on the fast side, extrovert themes, and bright coloration. (Of course, there are exceptions.) For example:

Smetana: The Bartered Bride Overture
Mozart: Marriage of Figaro Overture
Vaughan Williams: The Wasps Overture
Bernstein: Candide Overture
Rimsky-Korsakov: May Night Overture
Borodin: Prince Igor Overture (also his Polovtsian Dances)
Balakirev: Islamey
Nicolai: Merry Wives of Windsor Overture
Rossini: Any overture of his
Dukas: The Sorceror's Apprentice
Saint-Saens: Danse Macabre
Glinika: Ruslan and Ludmilla Overture

Some of these pieces start slowly and softly, but only by way of introduction. You might want to check some of them out.

Anyway, sorry to bother you, just asking for a few more suggestions.... IM ADDICTED NOW lol

Glad to hear it. The nice thing about classical music is that it covers such a huge range of material, most anybody can find a large niche to explore of things they like. As tastes change, there's just that much more to encounter.

[Kree]

Thank you so much Fable - I am now much more enlightened from this thread - I absolutely love this stuff lol

[TheAmazingOopah]

Originally Posted by C Elegans

As a former pianist, I must agree with Moonbiter. I played Rachmaninov's 2nd and 3rd as a teenager and never found them as hard as Chopin's etudes. Chopin was really killing me, he was really my musical trauma, I hated those etudes to the extent that it took me 10 years to be able to appreciate listening to them. Strangely, Rachmaninov had very large hands (I had to cheat and use two very swift keystrokes + the damper pedal) whereas Chopin had very small hands, and I also have quite small hands.

Wow, you played those two as a teenager? Cool! How was that like? Really hard, or managable? How long did it take you before you first performed it? And how many time did you need before you were satisfied with your performance? Sorry for the curiosity, but that really sounds interesting. I mean, at what age did you actually started playing as a professional (?) pianist? And was it like a side thing where you performed say once a month and still went to a regular school, or did you have a private teacher or went to a school with extra musical attention?

More of a Q&A for C Elegans this post, I hope that Fable won't mind.

[Kree]

Also, anyone have any suggestions for good reading material on any period????

[Tricky]

Double post, sorry. My browser didn't respond.

[Tricky]

Say Fable, this is kind of a long shot, but how's your Q&Aing on modern Jazz?

If possible I'd like your help figuring out this 23 second audio sample I extracted from a video file. The people I asked are scraping their heads over this. Well.. I like it and I would love to hear more, but I have no information on it whatsoever.

I can't keep the sample below the maximum attachment size, not even in mp3 form. I could mail it? It would be about 300 kb.

[Noober]

I was wondering, Fable, if you could suggest a specific set to introduce me to Mozart's operas. They seem to be the only operas that I simply don't care for (probably because I just don't like light voices unless they have godlike coloratura mastery), but given the barren opera scene in Melbourne, I'm probably going to have to see a Mozart some time soon.

I'm currently considering three sets which I have been referred to, but my knowledge of the popular/definitive Mozart sets are quite limited and I'm really just guessing by reputation. I'm not particularly concerned with sound quality (good mono, or a half-decent live recording are all acceptable), but I should state I absolutely loathe a certain unmentionable New Zealand Dame.

The 1966 Klemperer/Ghiaurov/Gedda/Ludwig/Freni Don Giovanni is the first option (as it's currently being staged), the next is the 1968 Böhm/Mathis/Dieskau/Janowitz/Troyanos Figaro (I quite enjoyed Il Barbiere) and lastly the 1964 Klemperer/Gedda/Janowitz/Popp/Frick/Unger/Schwarzkopf/Ludwig Magic Flute (I like Gedda and Popp).

I would be grateful for any input you can offer.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Tricky

Say Fable, this is kind of a long shot, but how's your Q&Aing on modern Jazz?

Do you mean very recent jazz styles, performers, or compositions? And how modern is modern? Many would assert that 1960s third stream jazz was more modern than anything that's appeared, since.

The 1966 Klemperer/Ghiaurov/Gedda/Ludwig/Freni Don Giovanni is the first option (as it's currently being staged), the next is the 1968 Böhm/Mathis/Dieskau/Janowitz/Troyanos Figaro (I quite enjoyed Il Barbiere) and lastly the 1964 Klemperer/Gedda/Janowitz/Popp/Frick/Unger/Schwarzkopf/Ludwig Magic Flute (I like Gedda and Popp).

Avoid the Klemperer. During the 1960s his recordings suddenly became incredibly slow, after having been relatively fast through all of his life. Most of the singers can't handle his tempi in that Don Giovanni, though the Giovanni, Ghiaurov, and the Leporello, Berry, do a fine job. Consider, instead, the version led by Giulini. It has a superb cast, and an excellent conductor.

Good choice on the Figaro, and also on the Magic Flute, nowhere near as stodgy as Klemperer's Don Giovanni. As I recall, though, much of the German dialog was excised. That may be the best way to enjoy it, but you should at least have a libretto of the complete work so you can follow along on the dialog sections that aren't included.

Good luck.

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by fable

Do you mean very recent jazz styles, performers, or compositions? And how modern is modern? Many would assert that 1960s third stream jazz was more modern than anything that's appeared, since.

Sorry for my late reply. There's all kinds of stuff going on atm.

The base and drum are modern enough to remind me of Ska. Sax sounds bebop, but there aren't enough notes in the sample to determine any type of scale. Drums have definitely too much structure in it to be bebop. Base.. I don't know. Can't hear it that well.


Edit: I rigged up a YouSendIt tranfer. Don't know why I didn't think of this earlier.
YouSendIt - Sample

The link should be enough, but it won't work forever.

[Noober]

Originally Posted by fable

Avoid the Klemperer. During the 1960s his recordings suddenly became incredibly slow, after having been relatively fast through all of his life. Most of the singers can't handle his tempi in that Don Giovanni, though the Giovanni, Ghiaurov, and the Leporello, Berry, do a fine job. Consider, instead, the version led by Giulini. It has a superb cast, and an excellent conductor.

Interesting, I always thought that Mozart singers are meant to have superior breath control (but then again I haven't gone far past McCormack's Il Mio Tesoro), and I wouldn't have thought that Gedda with his easy 20 second phrases would have that much trouble. Thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to pick up the Guilini set next time I'm out.

Btw, is the Der Holle Rache from the Klemperer set (Popp + slow tempo seems right)?:
YouTube - "Queen of the Night" Lucia Popp: "Der Hölle Rache"

[fable]

Originally Posted by Tricky

Sorry for my late reply. There's all kinds of stuff going on atm.

The base and drum are modern enough to remind me of Ska. Sax sounds bebop, but there aren't enough notes in the sample to determine any type of scale. Drums have definitely too much structure in it to be bebop. Base.. I don't know. Can't hear it that well.

The sax is obviously Coltrane-influenced, but beyond that, I'm afraid I can be of no help. Sorry.

Interesting, I always thought that Mozart singers are meant to have superior breath control (but then again I haven't gone far past McCormack's Il Mio Tesoro),

Great choice.

...and I wouldn't have thought that Gedda with his easy 20 second phrases would have that much trouble. Thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to pick up the Guilini set next time I'm out.

Gedda was easily affected by his working environment. When surrounded by congenial singers and an understanding conductor, he'd really open up, but Klemperer truly cast a pall over the DG sessions, and it's clear Gedda finds the leaden tempi disspiriting. I've recently reviewed a DG he did live about 10 years earlier, when he was still a much more flexible conductor. This is part of it:

By the mid-1960s, Klemperer’s health was making one of its periodic rebounds. He accepted another EMI proposal to record Don Giovanni, and did so, with decidedly mixed results (EMI 63841) . Most conductors get faster or slower as they age, and though Klemperer personally denied it (most famously, during a BBC interview), this version of the opera made when he was 81 years old is one of the slowest available. There is an intensity and granitic grandeur in the overture, and again in the confrontation scenes between the Commendatore and Giovanni; an extraordinarily beautiful “Deh, vieni alla finestra,” whose sensuously relaxed pace dark-voiced Ghiaurov has no trouble sustaining; and some fine exchanges between Ghiaurov’s Giovanni and Walter Berry’s Leporello, who obviously hit it off well. The rest is frequently awkward, as impressive singers struggle for breath support at far more deliberate performing speeds than usual.

It had not always been so. Klemperer’s Don Giovanni was noted in a 1925 Wiesbaden production for his fast tempos and emphasis on comic elements. The opera was to become his triumphant farewell to Budapest in the late 1940s, where again his speeds were sometimes criticized as fast enough to be nearly unsingable. This 1955 Cologne concert performance owes more to those earlier performances, than it does to the 1966 EMI release. As such, it provides an interesting counterpoint to that later recording, and may be seen—with reservations—as more representative of Klemperer’s views on the opera until his very last years.

I still wouldn't recommend it, given the variable nature of the cast and the moderate sound, but it does give a better idea of Klemperer as a great Mozart opera conductor than that late DG for EMI.

Btw, is the Der Holle Rache from the Klemperer set (Popp + slow tempo seems right)?:
YouTube - "Queen of the Night" Lucia Popp: "Der Hölle Rache"

My copy is on LP, and my LP collection is still boxed up. However, you can probably check for the opera and Klemperer on Amazon and find an excerpt from it for comparison's sake. It *does* sound the same, to me: a good tempo, if not a very exciting one, it avoids pushing the singer too much, and allows dramatic points to be made.

[Tricky]

Thanks, it's something.

[Moonbiter]

Hey Fable. I consider buying Murray Perahia's collected versions of Mozart's piano concertos with the English Chamber Orchestra. A lot of people tell me he's a sub-par player, lacking in empathy and emotion. However, I heard his version of the 25th in C mayor the other day, and it was really enchanting. What's your take on this?

[fable]

Originally Posted by Moonbiter

Hey Fable. I consider buying Murray Perahia's collected versions of Mozart's piano concertos with the English Chamber Orchestra. A lot of people tell me he's a sub-par player, lacking in empathy and emotion. However, I heard his version of the 25th in C mayor the other day, and it was really enchanting. What's your take on this?

I admit, Im not fond of Perahia's interpretations. Though he has technique to spare, I find him tidy and colorless to the point of robotic. My preferences run to what I perceive as more expressive Mozart: Annie Fischer or Lili Kraus, for example. On the other hand, quite a few people enjoy Perahia who are discerning listeners, so you're in good company.

[Moonbiter]

OK. I'll look around some more, then. If I'm gonna shell out $80 for something, even with the current value, it better be worth it. Do you have any suggestions regarding the collected works in one package?