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06-12-2002, 08:05 AM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Mon Calamari
Posts: 4,059
| | | "enemy combatant" (no spam)
Does this bother anyone other than me?
Jose Padilla (aka Abdullah Al Muhajir) has been detained by the government and declared an "enemy combatant" which deprives him of civilian constitutional protections. Never mind that Padilla isn't a soldier, nor does he meet any of the criteria set down by the Geneva Conventions (ie-he's not in uniform, nor is he enlisted/commissioned in a standing army, etc.).
If Padilla's status is upheld by the courts, this is a dark day for our constitutional rights.
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06-12-2002, 08:17 AM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Dead End Street
Posts: 11,275
| | | Has anyone got a link to the constitution, i would be very interested to see how this refers.
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06-12-2002, 08:19 AM
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06-12-2002, 08:35 AM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Fremantle, Australia
Posts: 6,251
| | Don't worry guys, it's okay, he's a "bad guy" and is "where he belongs-detained"  .
Regretably I can't say I'm surprised at this. 
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06-12-2002, 08:45 AM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: May 2001 Location: Springfield
Posts: 4,825
| | | Great thread HLD, it is definitely a complicated issue and throws a loop at consititutional law. Honestly, I don't know where I stand on this matter. Part of me sees the argument made he is not a soldier and is therefore entitled to his rights. The other part sees a man who is allegedly working with an International Terrorist Organization with an intent to blow up a device intended for mass destruction. On those grounds, I'd say you forego your rights. However, if they are wrong, it looks pretty awful for the government to wave a "Oops, my bad" flag.
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06-12-2002, 08:52 AM
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| | | Being a terrorist should not void his constitutional rights. We didn't withhold Tim McVeigh's rights. Nor do we prosecute abortion clinic bombers as "enemy combatants". Padilla is an American citizen. If the government can suspend his rights, they can suspend yours.
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Jesus saves! And takes half damage!
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06-12-2002, 09:05 AM
| | Exalted Member | | Join Date: May 2001 Location: Springfield
Posts: 4,825
| | | That's all true HLD and I understand that. I just believe that the events over the past eight months have changed the rules. Is it right? Hell if I know. I see where you are going though with the fact that anybody's constitutional rights can be voided. We can't live under a government who chooses to void some citizens rights while others are granted.
Do you want this guy free on bond giving what he is accused of setting aside of course the violation of constitutional rights.
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06-12-2002, 09:17 AM
| | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Mon Calamari
Posts: 4,059
| | | Despite the 11 September attacks, I don't think that the rule of law has changed. I think at America's aura and self-image of invulnerability has been shattered, but I do not think that gives the government the power to stiffle our rights in the name of "protection". The logical extreme is a police state, something I abhor. Remember that the crime rate in Germany under the Nazis was very low, but would you want to live under those conditions?
I believe in the constitutional protections which we are guaranteed, and I believe that the due proces of law is one of the most important. I do not believe that Padilla is entitled to special treatment different from any other citizen accused of a crime. If he was planning to assemble and detonate a "dirty" bomb, he should be executed in the same way that Tim McVeigh was: as an American civilian accused (and convicted) of terrorist activity.
Robert A. Heinlein wrote, "You can have peace or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once." We live in a free society. I hope we always do. However, freedom brings with it dissention, and non-violent dissention is something that is good for everyone. I fear that if our courts allow Padilla to be denied a trial by jury or proper legal representation, we are taking the first step down a dangerous path, where the rights of citizens fall by the wayside in the name of "collective security". I see the potential for terrible abuse there.
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Jesus saves! And takes half damage!
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough. Read the High Lord's Blog |
06-12-2002, 09:24 AM
| | Exalted Member | | Join Date: May 2001 Location: Springfield
Posts: 4,825
| | | As expected, I see your points and completely agree with them. Still, I'm torn despite the possibility of dangerous ramifications from the governments treatment of padilla.
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Crush enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women.
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06-12-2002, 09:40 AM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 5,573
| |  These guys sum it up for me...
"The better the state is established, the fainter is humanity. To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
"You must know there are two ways of contesting, the one by the law, the other by force; the first method is proper to men, the second to beasts; but because the first is frequently not sufficient, it is necessary to have recourse to the second. Therefore it is necessary for a prince to understand how to avail himself of the beast and the man.
If men were entirely good this precept would not hold, but because they are bad, and will not keep faith with you, you too are not bound to observe it with them. Nor will there ever be wanting to a prince legitimate reasons to excuse this nonobservance. "
- Nicolo Machiavelli
__________________ Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
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06-12-2002, 10:20 AM
|  | Moderator | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wanderlusting with my lampshade, like any decent k
Posts: 5,800
| |  Machiavelli principle...
...my PoV would be - it must established exactly how Padilla should be classified... btw, what if it is found out that Padilla is just a mercenary and is not into this thing out of principle/politics/whatever, does that change anything?
IMHO, a civilian is a civilian is a civilian. Otherwise, the deaths during 9/11 will be justified, afterall *sarcasm* those who died were taxpayers whose money is used to support the armed forces...
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06-12-2002, 10:49 AM
| | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 5,573
| | Quote: Originally posted by Maharlika
IMHO, a civilian is a civilian is a civilian. Otherwise, the deaths during 9/11 will be justified, afterall *sarcasm* those who died were taxpayers whose money is used to support the armed forces... | The day he decided to enter into a scheme to build and detonate a radioactive bomb on a heavily populated city he put himself in the proverbial line of fire. Let him rot (Sarcasm or not, there's no comparison between him and the people who were just sitting their offices doing their everyday jobs when a couple of planes rammed into their buildings).
__________________ Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Last edited by Kayless; 06-12-2002 at 10:54 AM.
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06-12-2002, 11:02 AM
| | Moderator | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wanderlusting with my lampshade, like any decent k
Posts: 5,800
| |  True enough, let him rot...
Quote: Originally posted by Kayless
The day he decided to enter into a scheme to build and detonate a radioactive bomb on a heavily populated city he put himself in the proverbial line of fire. Let him rot (Sarcasm or not, there's no comparison between him and the people who were just sitting their offices doing their everyday jobs when a couple of planes rammed into their buildings). | ...however, the point being raised here is how is he supposed to be tried? As a civilian or as an enemy combatant? Does the US now classify terrorists as legitimate enemies of the state such that its members when captured should be treated as enemy combatants and not as (civilian)criminals?
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06-12-2002, 11:10 AM
| | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Mon Calamari
Posts: 4,059
| | | @Kayless:
So then should all terrorists be stripped of their rights? What about Ted Kaczynski? As our friend Maharlika says, a civilian is a civilian is a civilian, whether they are declared enemies of the state or not. Is justice not better served by giving him his day in court? If he has a viable defense, let him present it for the world to see. We tried (and convicted) Omar Abdul Rachman and his cohorts (the perpetrators of the 1993 World Trade Center attack) in open courts and justice was served.
Padilla is not a soldier as defined by the Geneva Conventions. He cannot be detained or tried as such. If he is not treated as every other accused criminal, our proceedings will be tainted with accusations of vengeance, not justice. For our enemies, it will only lend them the credibility they crave and give credence to their claims that the US is a corrupt, hypocritical bully.
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Jesus saves! And takes half damage!
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough. Read the High Lord's Blog |
06-12-2002, 11:16 AM
| | Exalted Member | | Join Date: May 2001 Location: Springfield
Posts: 4,825
| | | Now HLD is really speaking sense. Your last statements on how the US'es actions give credence to the 'cause' said terrorists fight for convince me. Padilla should be held and tried as a US citizen. Changing the rules for one man is not the correct way to go about bringing Padilla to justice.
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