Education: The Lost Chapters

[dragon wench]

Preamble:
A recent discussion on the woes of grade school (K-12) education has led me to start this thread. I had the feeling something like this might have been discussed here at one point or another, and I dug back until about 2002. I did find one thread which touches on the topic, it is an interesting read and can be found here.


With so many new and different members, many of whom have experience teaching, I thought it might be interesting to return to this subject from a slightly different slant.


In essence, I feel that the education in schools is severely incomplete. All too often, instead of being taught to think...to explore with their minds, kids are taught how to memorize a string of facts or figures which they then regurgitate while "writing" multiple choice tests.
Note, I am not critisizing teachers here, many are extroardinarily gifted educators and they do amazing things with the materials they are given to work with. I am, however, discussing the school system that is handed down from on high.

In my ideal world, I would like to see an approach to public education that included subjects like Philosophy. Philosophy teaches people how to think and question. It teaches them how to logically analyse an issue. In my view, these are invaluable tools, and a critical part of any foundation in learning.

I would like to see History taught so that it is more than a litany of dates and figures, I would like to see it made relevant. We did not get to where we are by accident, why not trace backwards and look at our roots and the connections of present day events or issues to their origins in the past? Further, don't just recite the big names of History...spend time on the social backdrop...the soldiers who went to fight for the generals.. the impact on their lives and on their families. Instead of just focusing on the famous explorers.. look at the impact their presence left on the indigenous peoples in their wake..

Rather than just a paltry few novels in English class, how about a wide range of literature from nations all around the world?

And in the sciences... how about teaching astro physics or quantum physics.....expanding the mind outward and upward...



I know I am idealistic, and I know that at present our education system(s) could not possible cope with something like the above. But... I wish it were possible.

What do you think of the present day education system in your country? Which subjects would you like to see included? Would you like to see any dropped?
How would you improve learning in schools? How would you inspire actual interest in learning?


Note: I didn't mention this in the title, but please, no spam

[The Z]

Before I address the topic, I'd like to give some background on my high school experience and please, I'm not trying to sound arrogant or pretentious, I'm just presenting some facts. I'm also sorry to make this lengthy, but to get my point you'll have to slog through it all.

Coming from a private school (I did go through a few years of public school as well), I realize I was privileged enough to receive many of the things that you would like in the public school system. For literature, we were given a list of 20-25 books in three to five different categories and were supposed to choose three to read over the summer. I would never have read Dostoevsky and Homer if it weren't for my high school English class.

As far as sciences go, astro and quantum physics require a fairly large knowledge of basic and intermediate physics, which is what is generally taught in Physics 11 and Physics 12 in British Columbia.

In addition, there was a bevy of AP (or university level courses) that we had the option of taking, giving us a chance to get university credits before we'd even been through grade 11. Needless to say, those courses were much more than memorizing info and regurgitating it onto a scantron sheet.

But the thing I realized is that it's not necessarily the system or the curriculum that's the problem. The problem is with the environment the students are in and the motivation they have.

One of the reason why the private school system is so effective is because there's the entire idea that as a student, you are obligated to work hard and you are pushed to not only graduate, but graduate with the ability to pick between two to three high level universities (although there is a tiny minority that will go to smaller institutes, but 100% graduation is a reality in a private system).

You, as a student, do not want to see your parents' money go to waste. In addition, you are engrossed in an environment with students who feel the need to push themselves as much as you are - pushing you even further with competition. There are all sorts of rewards in place for excellence, which also plays a part.

We had the same curriculum as the public system. Since most of my friends were actually in public school, I know this for a fact, from talking about school with them. The difference was the students were self-motivated enough to take it above and beyond that (with the staff playing a big role in this), whether it was arts, athletics, or academics. There was such a hunger to succeed; that was the driving force for everything.

I don't feel that I'm smarter than anyone that came from a public system - far from it. I don't think any of my fellow graduates were smarter or better than anyone. I think the fact that there's so many people doing better than me grades-wise in university proves that. I just think that we got caught up in the atmosphere and we pushed ourselves to become what we are.

Wanting to do something goes a long way. If I didn't want to go that extra mile, I wouldn't have put so much care into my work; I wouldn't have tried to relate school to my life (of course, I will never be able to fit calculus in my life, that's the exception ) and we as a student body wouldn't have *forced* our teachers to teach us more than the dates on a page. I mean, when students ask 'why?' the teacher can't really blow it off.

That is all the school system needs, IMO and don't get me wrong I'm not an ideal student. I just know that coming from such an environment makes me more privileged than the majority and I can't be thankful enough for that.

Of course, I'm no expert on the matter and I don't mean to sound arrogant or anything and if I did, I apologize.

EDIT - Here's a list of some of the books that students entering grade 10 in said private school would have to read.Summer Reading

Obviously quite a few people cut corners during the summer and just used spark notes, but in general, the rules were followed.

[Sean The Owner]

i think they should also offer math classes that dont just teach you how to manipulate numbers, and do triginometry or graphing or whatever else, make courses that are most likely going to be used later in life

how many people need to use trig at their job? not very many, and how many people have to graph? more than trig, but not that much...and who is going to give you a 20 term question and tell you to figure it out, who's going to have a 20 term question, and how do people make them when they need the answer for something?

everytime i asked my grade 12 math teacher when we were going to use the cosine law, sine law, trig in general, multiplying polynomials, simplfying polynomials, and the various other subjects she tortured me through she started explaining something and just dragged into a mumble and went back to whatever she was doing before, i have yet to get an answer, i still have 3 months to try though

[Xandax]

I don't know how the present day situation is in Denmark (or many other countries) not being involved in that in anyway currently (neither going through myself, nor knowing anybody going through).
However, one thing I sorely lacked when I was in public school was the insane notion of "equality". If I as a pupil wanted challenges, I needed to seek them out myself most of the time - I was rarely challenged in public school, and expecting a kid of age 6->15 to do that himself if "unsupervised" is perhaps a bit naive. So I spend the better part of my 9 years in public school being bored, doing next to no homework (except in math which were over pretty quick) and not learning as much as I'd like to - and nowadays I really feel that with more encouragement in public school it could have affected my remainder academic careerer. (Not that I have regrets, still got a pretty good result from my latest education to show for it which I only archived based on the total sum of my skills, but still.... )

So while I know can be difficult for teachers to be able to concentrate equally between the ones who need help, and the ones who need challenges, I would think a good thing would be to divide classes not randomly, but solely based on "smarts" ... this is (was) an unpopular notion in Denmark as equality (for lack of better word) is one of the keywords of public education. Children must learn how to socialize as well as learn academics.
I want more focus on academics and then it is up to the parents to learn their children socialization skills.

So I would have loved more math, physics, history, languages and such classes when I was in school and perhaps less essays about what you did this summer, and I would have liked differentiated classes where people who knew/learned the material were automatically challenged with more difficulties and not just "sit and be quiet when done"
Of course this could have been changed lately in danish public schools but I doubt it...

[Magrus]

This will get long, as I have a lot to say on the issue, and I am long winded. I am writing late at night because I saw it and couldn't sleep, so that should be kept in mind if I start rambling. I'll clarify if it doesn't make sense later. I wrote a lot of stuff, but I got hit with a message saying this is too long, so some of it got cut out without being rewritten to save space.

Students are treated in a ridiculous manner in this district. If you prove that you actually have a brain worth mentioning, you are pushed to take any and all classes that you can and get as high of a grade as possible. Which, is a good thing. Yet, the manner and amount of pushing you get is borderline abusive from the staff. Why? The principals are wanting to use their work with the school as a stepping stone for entering into politics. Having the student body getting a higher grade point average in non-remedial classes makes them look better. Less fights, detentions, suspensions, expulsions, etc make them look better too.

In 8th grade, my school attempted to use the block scheduling method. Rather than 8 42 minute periods in a day, they went to 4 80 minute periods in a day. However, the high end classes, I hesitate to say AP classes, as this was middle school and not truly college level classes. They were not able to fit these classes which had harder course work into the block scheduling test year. So, in 8th grade, the 3 classes I had of this nature slotted me out of the mainstream in a completely new way. While the rest of the school tested out this new way of doing things, myself and my intellectual peers were segregated for the whole year. We ran on our own schedule, had every class together, just the 30 kids in my class, every class we had. It was like our own private school, with lots of random kids that we saw from time to time in the halls or at lunch.

I have to say, during this year of school, I did my best work out of all of the years in this district. We got to know each other very, very well being just 30 or so kids all year, every class together. There was a support structure for every student, as we all did very well and were intelligent and wanted to learn. The teachers loved it, as their students all did their work, participated and absorbed their teachings. We were the gifted kids, and in general breezed through the course work. If one of the students didn't get it, it freed the teacher up to help them, as the rest of tended to be able to do it all on our own. Leaving the teacher to sit down and work through things with the student on a one-on-one basis at the times someone didn't understand. In the event there were multiple people, the students could help out as well.

Aside from some normal issues between students at this age, we really didn't have many problems in our class rooms between ourselves. However, the staff was a different issue in some of the classes. Some of the teachers were incompetant, like my Spanish teacher, who showed up late 4 days a week, and left class to go get coffee on top of that everyday. My English teacher was a perverted pedophile and spent all of his time looking down girls shirts and up their skirts instead of teaching. Complaints about the staff were dismissed, as they had Tenure, and could not be fired, despite the fact they taught the students nothing, pissed them off royally, and/or performed illegal acts.

All through my time at the school, it was not uncommon for the students to get into shouting matches with the staff on multiple occasions, with the staff falling back onto insulting the students who were calling their teachers out on being incompetant and failing as a teacher. I understand that in every occupation, the system makes it difficult for people to do their work at the bottom of the corporate ladder, and teachers are no different. However, there are just no excuses for some of the situations I dealt with in school, and there really should be a system to drive the teachers that truly are incompetant or doing illegal things out of their career of choice.

The fact that I, as a student in 9th grade had to step in and teach 9th grade science because my teacher was an old acid-head burn out who switched from a research chemist to teaching science and sucked at it because of extreme drug use was unacceptable. Just because I could learn without her help, doesn't mean I should have been responsible for teaching 29 other students who were as gifted as I was in being able to learn on their own. The stuff I dealt with on a personal level in school that year was enough to cause me to lose sleep, but setting me apart as a student/teacher and the students only hope of passing was something I was neither being paid to do, or prepared for, or capable of balancing with personal and school issues to deal with. I got no support, and had to deal with the vice principal forcing me to share what I learned myself with the class when the issue was brought to him that the teacher was unable to teach and I was tutoring some of my friends as I did my work.

The fact that in 10th grade, which I only spent roughly half a year in due to things that went on in that school, which I won't get into yet, well the school went through some problems with over-population. I saw the effects in middle school, and at this time, 9th grade was considered middle school due to the fact there were 2 middle school buildings and only 1 high school building. Dropping an extra 3-4 kids in every class room instead of having an extra 2 classes with extra teachers and class rooms to make up for a lack of space to teach all of the students made things difficult. My math teacher was well, uncooperative and unreasonable. I was in AP math, and I had the class with my older step-cousin. This classes homework alone took 1 1/2-2 hours a night for myself, and 3+ hours for the older kids. Then, on top of it, we were handed a 30-50 page booklet of math problems that was to be done every week. Which accounted for 25% of our grade over all with all of the booklets we had to complete on top of our quizzes, tests and homework and took up roughly an additional 5 hours a week to complete. For someone with 7 classes, at 1-2 hours a nights work, having a teacher toss 4+ hours worth of work a night at you is ludicrous. College courses aren't even that bad except in relatively few higher end classes or universities.

Overpopulation, lack of true interest in student welfare by the principal and school board, and teacher frustration led to a lot of inter-personal problems. This really doesn't directly relate to the teaching aspect, but it is an indirect problem with it. A student who gets jumped and harrassed daily like I was has a hard time focusing on school work. When the system supports the people attacking the hard working student because they can throw a ball, it makes them disgusted and simply not give a damn. My counselors saw what I was going through in 8th grade from the other students and outlined a plan for me to graduate 2 years early so I could get out of the school. My parents dismissed that, which, was a problem in and of itself and leads to another thing.

Parents don't pay attention to what their kids need anymore. Not only is the coursework in general above and beyond what the previous general was taught so the parents cannot help their children at home anymore. Work conditions for most parents leave them so frustrated and tired they simply don't want anything to do with what kids do at school. School is school, and they look at it as a seperate existance for most kids. My aunt goes out of her way to help my little cousin, because she became aware of me getting tossed out of school and her oldest son getting into all sorts of trouble in school. His not getting the help he needed to pass led to him dealing drugs in school in order to do something that was worth his time and make money while still "attending" school. The principal was more interested in the kids who had a hard time passing simply being IN the school than actually passing for the most part. This was very common in my school, and there were often random sweeps from the police where the kids were locked in classrooms for hours on end while the cops brought police dogs through the school to search for drugs.

Kids are not being taught what they need in school whatsoever. In general, you know what you need to do for a minimum wage job when you've passed grade 6. After that, it's all worthless to you unless you can afford college. A cashier or gardener has no need for triginometry or chemistry. However, they do have a use for things like fixing their car, or childcare skills, money management and things like that. I believe that there are certain things that people use in every day life that should be taught in schools. The assumption that everyone has a parent to teach them these things is an idiotic one. Not everyone has a stay at home mother, and not everyone has good parents.

As far as higher end classes, dealing with quantum physics and the like, most students that I dealt with simply wouldn't be able to grasp the concepts. I never went into that, as it is a college course here, and I was forced to leave college. I honestly do not see something like that working unless it was provided as an AP elective for people with the intelligence and drive in order to do the work. Thinking is not the goal of most of the student body. They simply want to graduate and get out of school. However, that doesn't mean I don't think it shouldn't be an elective for the people that would actually be interested in it. I was upset I couldn't take Psych or Italian in my school, and I would have gladly taken either of those, or Philosophy, or a number of other classes that are college level when I was going.

[Sean The Owner]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xandax So while I know can be difficult for teachers to be able to concentrate equally between the ones who need help, and the ones who need challenges, I would think a good thing would be to divide classes not randomly, but solely based on "smarts"

i have a perfect math teacher right now for that, when he makes tests he is forced to give everyone the exact same test, but instead of it just being a test everyone can do, he adds bonus questions for the smarter people, so then the ones that arent naturally smart in math doesnt lose marks for not knowing the complicated stuff, but the smarter ones gain marks for it. i must say, besides his math smarts, he is by far the smartest teacher in my school, he knows how to keep a class quiet when hes talking, and gets a high level of participation in his classes, if only we had a bunch of clones of him for all math classes...(not my grade 12 math teacher, grade 10 academic[or smarter version of math classes])

[Chimaera182]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean The Owner i have a perfect math teacher right now for that, when he makes tests he is forced to give everyone the exact same test, but instead of it just being a test everyone can do, he adds bonus questions for the smarter people, so then the ones that arent naturally smart in math doesnt lose marks for not knowing the complicated stuff, but the smarter ones gain marks for it.

Except that extra credit is self-defeating. The less-intelligent kids in math are the ones who need those bonus questions to help boost their grades but aren't as likely to answer them (and if they do, not correctly), and those who are better at math and more likely to deal with bonus questions are the ones who don't even need those bonus points. And your math teacher is not the only teacher that offers such bonus questions; sorry to burst that particular bubble.

I remember being thoroughly disaffected by the world of public school. As one of the smarter kids, I was picked on at a young age; unfortunately, at the same time, I was learning the joys of skipping homework and just doing whatever the hell I wanted after school. So even though I was getting smarter, I wasn't doing all the nonsense work prescribed to us, and my grades tended to be mediocre as a result. I also wouldn't study, so things that would have stuck with me didn't exactly do so; my test scores, however, tended to be better than average despite my lack of studying.

My disaffection was caused by a couple things (and I think Magrus already discussed both, so excuse me while I reiterate). One of the things keeping me from excelling was the fact that I was mocked a lot in school. Since the majority of the teasing stemmed from my supposed status as a "brain," I cut down on my studying so I could fit in better (a bizarre but rather smart move for a young kid to make, even if it did cost me in school grades... like those mattered anyway [something I already knew]). Of course, it didn't work since the stigma of being a brain followed me from elementary school to middle and high school, as well. But the weird thing was, with the less-intelligent kids that were most likely to mock me for being smart, they all were convinced I was smart; the brainier kids in school, they didn't accept me as a genuine equal, but they didn't dismiss me entirely, either (and if the kids who are book smart are more-easily fooled by my charade and the so-called less-intelligent kids weren't, who was the smarter group, anyway?)

Another thing that bugged me was the notion of the jocks being "helped" academically, while those of us who worked for it and struggled and put our blood, sweat, and tears to earn those grades had to actually put forth the effort (okay, so I wasn't exactly one of those who stressed over it too much, but you get the point). If I needed a lesson in how little grades mattered, that right there was it in a nutshell.

On top of that, all my so-called "intellectual peers" were running themselves ragid. The majority of them were in every honors and AP class the high school offered, as well as holding part-time jobs, volunteering, and being involved in sports on top of that. No time for being a kid, which bothered me. So I spent my high school time being a kid while everyone ran themselves into sheer exhaustion.

So, I was just disaffected by the whole business of school as a result. And that's why public school failed me. That and I went through 20-something years with the barest minimum knowledge of WW1. Now that's just wrong. Before I started studying it on my own, I knew it "started" with the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand, it involved England, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the US (not even Russia, nor Italy, or Japan, nor the fact that the US entered the war late). After that, I didn't know diddly squat. One of the most major wars in the world and I knew nothing; that is just a failing. And good lord, I grew up in the 80s, and I didn't know squat about the cold war, or the Soviet Union, until after it disintegrated (and all I knew after that was that it existed; didn't learn much else until years later and on my own). So yeah, I feel that public school failed me.

[Tricky]

Aww.. shoot. I had such excellent spam.

I'd like to see something along the lines of 'social classes'. Back in the '50-'60 they actually taught to-be parents in college how to be a better parent. That's what my mother tells me anyway. Since they no longer do that we had best tell the children how to be better and less annoying instead. If that's at all possible. Reading and writing is also a given, especially since they start posting in fora as soon as they're off the bottle nowadays.

[BlueSky]

Part of the reasons that I am now considered an ex-teacher, were the state mandated "sweeping educational reform" that was put into practice. This resulted in many of the problems mentioned in earlier postings. A swing from actual teaching to "teaching to the testing" so that school systems could meet the required levels of achievement expected by the state. Another one of those no child left behind type of "improvements"
Sorry to say that if I were to have a school age child today, I would consider either home-schooling or a private school.

[dragon wench]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSky Part of the reasons that I am now considered an ex-teacher, were the state mandated "sweeping educational reform" that was put into practice. This resulted in many of the problems mentioned in earlier postings. A swing from actual teaching to "teaching to the testing" so that school systems could meet the required levels of achievement expected by the state. Another one of those no child left behind type of "improvements" Sorry to say that if I were to have a school age child today, I would consider either home-schooling or a private school.

That is truly stupid on the part of the system... my sense is that you were a fine teacher.
In my view, there are no improvements at all inherent to the "testing" approach. All that happens is that we manufacture legion upon legion of robots
They can recite a long litany of facts and figures, but they are entirely unable to piece those facts together with intelligent thought and anyalysis


Yes... I know exactly what you mean. This is partly why we have our son in French Immersion. It is still the public system, but it tends to be more enriched, both culturally and academically. Not that I don't have significant issues with my son's school, but that is entirely another topic.

While I certainly see the appeal, I'm not sure about private schools, or home schooling, to be honest. I attended a private school from grades 9 to 12, and I have little positive to say about the experience, other than that my education was marginally better than the one existing in the public system. Granted, private schools, by their very nature, differ a great deal from one another... but I really dislike the elitist culture that seems to exist in many. Also, often kids who get sent to private school are there because they've been repeatedly suspended or expelled from various public schools. So what you often get is something that appears high calibre on the surface...while on the underside it is only several steps up from a juvie.
Or, at least, that was what I encountered, and it is also the experience of many other people I've discussed the subject with.
All purely anecdotal of course, I don't know if it is possible to obtain data or statistics for this kind of thing.

Home schooling is a different ball of wax IMO. I think it can be great... but it *really* depends. My concern with home schooling is two-fold. First of all, in my part of the world it is often the preferred option for religious fundamentalists who don't want their children to be taught things like evolution or sex ed. Secondly, I think any parent who homeschools their child needs to ensure that said child is involved in some form of organization where they interact with other kids and also learn socialization skills.

Still.... looking at the public school system.. I can certainly see the appeal of alternate forms of education.

[Vicsun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean The Owner i think they should also offer math classes that dont just teach you how to manipulate numbers, and do triginometry or graphing or whatever else, make courses that are most likely going to be used later in life how many people need to use trig at their job? not very many, and how many people have to graph? more than trig, but not that much...and who is going to give you a 20 term question and tell you to figure it out, who's going to have a 20 term question, and how do people make them when they need the answer for something? everytime i asked my grade 12 math teacher when we were going to use the cosine law, sine law, trig in general, multiplying polynomials, simplfying polynomials, and the various other subjects she tortured me through she started explaining something and just dragged into a mumble and went back to whatever she was doing before, i have yet to get an answer, i still have 3 months to try though

Jesus Christ.

You don't think "manipulating numbers" is something you'll use later in life, and you're also opposed to learning anything you won't be able to directly use? I don't think I've ever used the fact that the Earth is round, nor that the Nazis lost World War 2, I feel like a clown for having ever filled my mind with such useless information.

Am I right to assume you're 18 or thereabouts if you're graduating from 12th grade? The fact that you're doing simple trigonometry in the last year of secondary education is also a terrifying thought.

@DW, you make fair points, though I'm not sure I can completely sympathize since I quite liked my high-school years. I don't feel like writing a particularly long post, so I'll quickly summarize the main principles of the International Baccalaureate Diploma which was what I took in the last two years of my secondary education (I graduated last year, so my memory is still fresh). I'm sure I've sung it praises before, though I feel it's relevant

Quote:

All too often, instead of being taught to think...to explore with their minds, kids are taught how to memorize a string of facts or figures which they then regurgitate while "writing" multiple choice tests.

Remembering facts was not an issue as during examinations a fair amount of reference materials were provided (formula booklets for math and the sciences, dictionaries for languages, whatever texts we needed to analyze, etc) leaving the student in a position that requires nothing but clear thinking. I didn't take one multiple choice test during my two years in the program.

Quote:

In my ideal world, I would like to see an approach to public education that included subjects like Philosophy. Philosophy teaches people how to think and question. It teaches them how to logically analyse an issue. In my view, these are invaluable tools, and a critical part of any foundation in learning.

Your ideal world is quite close to my real world then. The only subject that was absolutely mandatory was Theory of Knowledge which deals with basic epistemology. A lot of people hated it, though I personally though it was one of the most useful classes I took.

Quote:

Rather than just a paltry few novels in English class, how about a wide range of literature from nations all around the world?

The IBO (the body providing the curriculum) requires five (I think) of the novels we study novels be originally written in a language different than English. I would have probably never read Chekhov had it not been for that particular initiative.

Quote:

And in the sciences... how about teaching astro physics or quantum physics.....expanding the mind outward and upward...

I did study astrophysics and yes it was quite mind expanding. I could have also studied quantum mechanics - at a pretty basic level, of course - had my teacher not opted for optics instead.

My point is, good schools exist. You just have to look around

[Magrus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicsun My point is, good schools exist. You just have to look around

The problem with that is, in this country at least, good schools cost money. Lots of money. In fact, when I think about it, if I wanted to go to a good college, it would cost roughly x3 my yearly income to go through one years worth of college right now. Meaning, if I took a 4 year run at a good college, and didn't get a better job, which is very likely in the economic situation in this state I live in, it would take me 12-15 years to simply pay back what my loans were if I put every dollar earned towards paying off my school loans.

Good schools, as in the high school sense of things, cost money too. My step-father lived in a horrible neighborhood growing up. His aunt paid something like $5,000 a year to put him through a private school to avoid the violence he dealt with in the schools of his neighborhood, and this was back in the 70's. I can't imagine what the cost of that school is now. That is in addition to mandatory education taxes every working American adult must pay.

[BlueSky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon wench Home schooling is a different ball of wax IMO. I think it can be great... but it *really* depends. My concern with home schooling is two-fold. First of all, in my part of the world it is often the preferred option for religious fundamentalists who don't want their children to be taught things like evolution or sex ed. Secondly, I think any parent who homeschools their child needs to ensure that said child is involved in some form of organization where they interact with other kids and also learn socialization skills.

Thank you for the kind words.

Homeschooling is another ball of wax. In this area, IMO and I do get to see the parents and their kids that homeschool, that is "if" they use the library and I hope that all homeshoolers do.
and for the mose part they seem to be, oh maybe a tenth that fall into the fundamentalist part(and at least they are exposing their kids to the library, where they may find a few different viewpoints ), all the others seem to be parents that want something better for their children than the public school can offer.
We do have a Catholic private school within the block where I work, so I get to observe the interaction of these students and their teachers(seem to use us a lot more than the public schools, who seem to view us as a field trip just to get out of the classroom. All in all, in this aea, both private and homeschooling have a better appeal.IMO

As for the second point, I have noticed that these parents tend to be the one that do take advantage of the various programs we have for kids, and a few have told me that it is the interaction part that is a big part of the reasons for attending.

[Vicsun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magrus The problem with that is, in this country at least, good schools cost money. Lots of money. In fact, when I think about it, if I wanted to go to a good college, it would cost roughly x3 my yearly income to go through one years worth of college right now. Meaning, if I took a 4 year run at a good college, and didn't get a better job, which is very likely in the economic situation in this state I live in, it would take me 12-15 years to simply pay back what my loans were if I put every dollar earned towards paying off my school loans. Good schools, as in the high school sense of things, cost money too. My step-father lived in a horrible neighborhood growing up. His aunt paid something like $5,000 a year to put him through a private school to avoid the violence he dealt with in the schools of his neighborhood, and this was back in the 70's. I can't imagine what the cost of that school is now. That is in addition to mandatory education taxes every working American adult must pay.

I understand that, and I do consider it to be a big problem which is why I'm glad I live in a country where all education is free.

Free education is one of the maybe three things I'd consider 'no brainers' which governments keep getting wrong. The other two are drug legalization and an end to agricultural subsidies, and so far Denmark has one out of three down. Politics, ugh.

[Maharlika]

...sadly time right now doesn't permit me to fully express my opinion on the topic.

As soon as I get the time, I will post.

But as not to waste this post, I would like to express my surprise. All along, I thought that rote learning is a thing of the past in the education system in developed countries. Never thought it still exists in developed countries like Canada.

I just attended the East Asia Regional Council of Overseas Schools (EARCOS) annual convention for administrators last month in Bangkok. Interesting stuff I learned there.

Then again, the schools represented were certainly not public ones. All were basically International Schools.