Drivers liscences for illegals.

[Opalescence]

Look the main problem is that there is no feasible solution anymore. There are just too many illegal immigrants, and short of rounding them all up and kicking them out, there's nothing we can do about it. So long as they're here we might as well make the best of it, and at least by giving them driver's licences we can be sure that when they drive they're qualified to do so. The main thing that's gotta be done is to figure out how to prevent them from jumping the fence in the first place; not an easy thing at all, short of building a wall the way Israel is doing (and that's sure to cause all kinds of issues with Mexico).

[Scayde]

One thing to consider for those who would deny illegals a license, is that often the address on that license is the only means of tracking and locating them. True fact, many are migrant workers who do not stay in one place long, but the license address that they use is often the permanent residence of a relative who might know where they are currently located if the need should arise to track them down.

[dragon wench]

Originally Posted by CopperWater

I think giving licenses to illegals would only make our ecnomic circumstances even worse. It would encourge more illegals to cross the border. It says: "hey you can come into our country, gain profit from a job and get free money from the government along with all the benefits of being American without any work! and all you need to do is hop a fence!" I dont live in a place that depends on allot of migrant workers, we mainly make steel products here. But I think its horrible that we allowed this problem to grow so large. So now if anything was to make them go away(which i highly doubt will happen)we would completely boned.

Have you actually read any of the posts in this thread?

In most cases, illegal immigrants work for wages that the average citizen would not even contemplate. And the system makes it easy for this happen. Since these people are not in the country legally, they have no protection whatsoever from unscrupulous, exploitative employers. You have heard of sweatshops, right? And yes, they *do* exist in the US and Canada.

If the migrants were legal, they would be entitled to the same rights and wages as everyone else. IMO, the best way to deal with the situation is to legitimise their residency. This means employers would not have the same options of paying these people dirt wages.

And I ask again? Why should some people be able to seek a better life while the same is denied to others? Not that 'legitimate' immigration has the most humanitarian of histories..but that is another subject...

To be brutally frank about it, I think that many of the attitudes expressed towards illegal, and particularly Mexican, migrants has everything to do with good old-fashioned racism.

[Scayde]

Originally Posted by dragon wench

To be brutally frank about it, I think that many of the attitudes expressed towards illegal, and particularly Mexican, migrants has everything to do with good old-fashioned racism.

Sis, You know I am not a racist
As I said first off, I believe all borders should be open.. this planet belongs to us all, and it is not anyone's fault where they are born. Open boarders play into the free market ideal.. the country that is run the best, attracts the largest number of people, take away welfare, and the free loaders have no incentive to stay.. but that is another topic

I am wondering if those who have such a strong visceral reaction to non-English speaking / non- Caucasian illegal immigrants have the same strong reaction to English speaking Anglo-immigrants without papers.

[dragon wench]

Originally Posted by Scayde

Sis, You know I am not a racist

I am wondering if those who have such a strong visceral reaction to non-English speaking / non- Caucasian illegal immigrants have the same strong reaction to English speaking Anglo-immigrants without papers.

I know you are no racist *hug*

Indeed... I have wondered the same thing... Looking at it historically, one thing interesting to note is that Irish immigrants were especially reviled... in much the same way as are Mexicans. The Irish were obviously caucasion, but they were called... "The White N_____s of America." (note: I have not written the one word the way I have to avoid any filter.. I just won't write it out..)

[Scayde]

Originally Posted by dragon wench

I know you are no racist *hug*

Indeed... I have wondered the same thing... Looking at it historically, one thing interesting to note is that Irish immigrants were especially reviled... in much the same way as are Mexicans. The Irish were obviously caucasion, but they were called... "The White N_____s of America." (note: I have not written the one word the way I have to avoid any filter.. I just won't write it out..)

Excellent point. One perfect example is that during the early 1800’s and up to the outbreak of the Civil War, the working conditions for the average Irish immigrant in the North was far worse than most slaves in the South. This racism reflected the prejudice that existed between the English and Irish in Europe.

When JFK ran for President, there was a huge outcry because of his Irish-Catholic background and, though he was born in this country, there were many who actually tried to prevent his nomination based on the fear that the “Pope would run the country”...

Perhaps giving in small incremental steps such as a driver's license will eventually lead to more open minds across the board

[jopperm2]

I do think there is a problem with illegal immigration. I don't have a problem with immigrants, but it is relatively easy to come here legally. What I think a better solution to the immigration and driver's liscensing issues it to provide better control on the borders to reduce illegal immigration. We would then continue the DLs for the illoegals that are already here. We then assist industries that use this type of labor in finding alternate solutions that require less hand labor or other solutions that would be less dependant on immigrant labor. This way we could gradually phase out the illegal labor over the period of a generation. I'm not completely sure that would do it, but that's what I'm thinking would be the best solution. Any ideas?

Edit: wow.. I missed the whole page 2 before replying..
RE: racism.. I think this is the major problem with immigration.. You don't hear about people complaining that people are here from Europe or Asia with long expired visas when those are the people who are far more likely to be terrorists or spies.

[Macleod1701]

Never mind immigrants I don't think 99% of people on this planet should be allowed driving licenses because their all such bad inconsiderate a**eholes.

[Chanak]

@jopperm: Certain industries utilize illegal workers - the construction business, for one, comes to mind. Some people harbor the notion that they are taking jobs that citizens could have. As has been already noted, that is not the case. In the case of construction crews, I'll draw upon my own experience: I was part of the main contractor's team building a home in Tennessee. We lacked the tools, equipment, and experience to lay the concrete block foundation walls, so we hired a reputable brick layer and his crew to do the job. He showed up with a crew of five Mexican workers - none of them spoke a word of English. These guys were at it at the crack of dawn, and were done before lunch. They didn't even need plumb lines to build the most perfectly level, flawlessly mortared concrete block walls ever seen by any of us. I'm not sure what they were being paid, but the way those guys worked was impressive. They were doing a job most didn't want to do. The bricklayer told us he was short of help, and had picked his crew up at a Day Labor place a month prior. He kept them on after their first job with him - he was that impressed with their work. I don't think allowing them DLs is going to hurt anything...instead, it would help in tracking illegals in the first place so some kind of accountability can exist.

Personally, I don't see how an illegal can "freeload" the system here in the US. First of all, to gain disability services/income from the state, an individual has to possess a Social Security number. Illegals don't have one of those unless they obtain one...illegally. If the "freeloading" that's being referred to is access to emergency medical services, then I beg to differ with the concept of freeloading. I think denying emergency medical services to anyone, legal resident or not, is barbaric. *I* have a Social Security number...*I* can apply for medicaid if I need it. Illegals can't...but they can walk into a public health clinic or hospital for help.

[jopperm2]

Yeah, in my home town there was a crew of Mexican illegals that were put up in this scummy motel to build a factory and they put it up in no time.. I had never heard of Mexicans being used for builing before that. I thought it was unusual. Must just be unusual in that area. The freeloading people are talking about is when illegals have children in the US so that they can get food stamps, etc. I personally dont think that those kids are less entitled to any benefits than anyone else, but it does kinda suck that the parents aren't paying taxes though.. Come to think of it though, is anyone on welfare paying taxes? Sales tax sure, but illegals pay that too. Most people on welfare and illegals make less that what you would have to in order to pay taxes. Except FICA. But that goes to Medicare and Social Securuty. So IMO, unless I"m wrong about this I don't think it makes much difference. My major problem with them is that they broke the law to obtain what they have. I still say give em DLs though. If one of them kills someone, I'd like to at least have a record of the name or something. Also, it's pretty easy to fake a ssn in the US I'm told.

[Chanak]

Originally Posted by jopperm2

Yeah, in my home town there was a crew of Mexican illegals that were put up in this scummy motel to build a factory and they put it up in no time.. I had never heard of Mexicans being used for builing before that. I thought it was unusual. Must just be unusual in that area. The freeloading people are talking about is when illegals have children in the US so that they can get food stamps, etc. I personally dont think that those kids are less entitled to any benefits than anyone else, but it does kinda suck that the parents aren't paying taxes though.. Come to think of it though, is anyone on welfare paying taxes? Sales tax sure, but illegals pay that too. Most people on welfare and illegals make less that what you would have to in order to pay taxes. Except FICA. But that goes to Medicare and Social Securuty. So IMO, unless I"m wrong about this I don't think it makes much difference. My major problem with them is that they broke the law to obtain what they have. I still say give em DLs though. If one of them kills someone, I'd like to at least have a record of the name or something. Also, it's pretty easy to fake a ssn in the US I'm told.

I know the food stamp program here in TX has some pretty stiff requirements - it's basically designed to assist people for relatively short periods of time. I do know many people have an outdated image of most assistance programs - I did too until I started working for a state agency. A child born here has citizenship rights...and I don't think that should change, regardless of the parents' citizenship status. I believe the problems we have here in the US aren't very simple - and I think the overall exodus of manufacturing jobs contributes a great deal to the complex of problems we have when it comes to jobs, unemployment, people going after benefits, etc. If you work at all in Texas, you have less of a chance of getting foodstamps (now called EBT, entirely electronic: much like a debit card) than if you had no work at all. There are also caps on living expenses: for example, you might pay $80 a month for your phone bill, but the program only counts a $40 expense there (that amount is the basic phone service bill, no internet or extras added, no loong distance fees, etc). Your rent expense is only so high (I think the formula includes number of people living there, number of bedrooms, etc), so someone living in an $800 a month apartment will only look at $600 or so counted for rent expenses. In other words, the days of living high on the hog and getting assistance are over.

[Paranitis]

There are 3 different examples I can think of when it comes to mexican (maybe illegal, on the first two, but can't be sure..all 3 examples none of the mexicans spoke a word of english).

1) Lazy Mexicans - There is the stereotype that exists that says that Mexicans are lazy, and I have witnessed this most often than not when dealing with non-english speaking Mexicans, whether they are building, gardening, or whatever..they just sit there, not doing anything but chatting to eachother..the job never tends to get done, and they just freaking sit there!

2) Great Wall in 3 Days Mexicans - There is an usual thing about Mexicans though..they may be lazy, but when they get it in their mind to work, they could recreate the Great Wall of China in about 3 days..they are the fastest, hardest workers that I have ever seen..but that is only when they get off their lazy arses and work!

3) Unwanted Jobs? - My sister and I used to work for KFC (fast food) and that industry is full of teenagers that are looking for a beginning job, who work for minimum wage, and it is a revolving door of a business..meaning that they have a high rate of people quitting the job, and it is always filled right away with new people who want the jobs. Anyway, at KFC..our boss was a Mexican..but he was a US citizen, so all seemed well. And people were constantly filling out applications to grab a job there for when someone quit. Not long after I quit the job (my sister stayed for like a year..it took me like 3 weeks) my sister said that the first guy who was hired after I left was the cousin of the boss..and he was an illegal immigrant..and she knew this because the stupid boss told her so. So he both went all nepotist, AND hired illegal help. So you cannot tell me that illegal workers are only taking unwanted jobs.

So in conclusion I say kick all illegal immigrants out of the country, and require it by law for english to be known before becoming a legal resident of the country. Basically you are either a legal citizen who knows english, or you are out of our damn country!

[jopperm2]

@Chanak, Now I see why we sometimes differ in our social opinions. Here in FL it is insanely easy to get EBT(we call it that too, I think that's getting more widespread in the US, much more efficient and less embarrassing IMO). A family of three with an income of about $21k can still get like $200/mo here. They are very strict with cash assistance, but EBT and Medicaid are really easy.

PS> Do they put the cash assistance on the same ebt card as food stamps in TX? That's what they do here. Works like an ATM card.

[Paranitis]

I understand the whole thing about WHY some US citizens don't speak english..and it's because of when we bought the southwest states from Mexico way back when. But over all that time I would think there would either be some push to throw them out of OUR (bought and paid for) country, or to assimilate them into our ways (while letting em keep their precious 'culture'..bah).

Oh, and to hell with illegals getting driver's licenses..it just says to them "you may be wrong, but..we'll let it go, cuz we are a bunch of pansies that don't have the balls to say no".

[jopperm2]

Keep in mind that when the Constitution, Declaration of Independance, etc. were written, English was not the most common language spoken in the US. The US is not considered an English-speaking nation. We have no official language. So there is no "our" in this case. In fact, in 50 or so years, Spanish will likely outpace English as primary language.