does God really care? (no spam, please)

[HighLordDave]

Check out this article over at CNN.com.

A girl with a disgestive disorder took her first holy communion, only to have it invalidated because the wafer she took did not contain unleavened wheat which, according to the Roman Catholic Church, is necessary for the elements of the Lord's Supper.

Apparently, if this girl eats anything with gluten in it, she can die. So because of this, she can either 1) risk her health every time she is served communion, 2) not take communion or 3) leave the Catholic Church.

Do you think it really makes a difference to God what elements are used at the Table?

Of course, I'm a Presbyterian, and we think of communion (though still a holy sacrament) as more symbolic than literal, so we could take it with milk and Ritz crackers, but I think the rigid following of these sorts of rules is exactly what's wrong with the Roman Catholic church today.

[Skuld]

Well I was rasied Lutheran(who also believe communion to be symbolic), but am hardly religious by any means. I'm also not a bible scholar, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the bible that says communion wafers must have at least some portion of them being wheat. I'm also not a huge fan of the roman catholic church, and what goes on under them "in the name of god." But to simply answer your question no, god doesn't care. I think the family should just flip the catholic church the bird, and say in the classis southpark style(because that's about the level of this conflict) "f_ck you guys, I'm goin home" and leave it at that. If your options are your sacrament or your life, there shouldn't be a contest. And I don't thin it's woth fighting over. Something that ridiculous, I would just shake my head at and turn my back to.

OK, so I just had my dad(who was raised catholic) read the article, and the first words out of his mouth were, "what a crock of $hit. that's pathetic." Need I say more?

I'm very proud of myself for refraining from my habitual bashing of religion, namely the catholic church.

[dragon wench]

I guess the first thing I should say is that I am not a Christian... so I'm not really sure how valid my views are in this regard...

But.. I would like to think that God, however one perceives such a force, would be compassionate enough to allow for dietary restrictions.. Especially given that in the above case the girl might die if she eats unleavened wheat...

[Weasel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighLordDave but I think the rigid following of these sorts of rules is exactly what's wrong with the Roman Catholic church today.

Hopefully without sounding like I'm bashing religion, which is not my point in this post.


The main thing in my view is the rigid part. I believe in changing events which must be taken into account. My faith, (if this is what it is even called) is based on rules. Rules that must have the ability to change or they will stagnate. The RC in my opinion is headed to the latter.


*Note if this opinion (and that is all it is) offends this was not my intensions. I picked my words in the best way possible to get my opinion across.

[Skuld]

If what you're saying is that the RC church has to get off it'e keister and change with the times, then I'm all for that. As much as it looks like it if you look at the head honchos costumes of the RC church it's no longer the days of the holy roman empire, and they need to realize that.

[unregisturd]

I was raised as a nondenominational Christian... And on Sundays, when we have communion, my dad uses anything he can find. (We have church at our house. We found the organized church to be a bit... I dunno. Long story. And I don't feel like getting into anything that will offend anyone.) But I really don't think God cares what you food you choose to eat for communion... I don't even think he cares if you have communion or not. I mean, I think he does, if you are into Christianity that much, but my definition of Christianity is probably different than most... It's definitely not close to any specific denominations of Christianity. ANYWAYS... That's not what I wanted to get into. I really only wanted to say that we've used bread, (with yeast!), bagels, muffins, enlish muffins, and even pizza crust. Hehe. Very unorthodox, I know. We even used fish one time... But I don't know if it was meant to represent the same thing as the bread. Oh well. Doesn't matter. There's my input.

[fable]

Brief note: first, the Roman Catholics aren't alone in this view concerning leavened and unleavened bread. Some Jewish rites require bread, and unleavened is considered essential.

And for perspective, we should remember that the various Pentacostal churches would consider any parishioner doomed to hell for a wide variety of perfectly innocent actions that are far more general in scope and nature than the RCC.

That said, you probably already know my views, being a witch and Wiccan. Ritual is vital; it uses symbols which become reality. But the imagination is a wonderful tool that can adapt a range of symbols to suit the purpose. When the symbols become fossilized and can't be adjusted for any purpose whatsoever, the religion itself has (IMO) lost sight of its goals.

[Gwalchmai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasel The main thing in my view is the rigid part. I believe in changing events which must be taken into account. My faith, (if this is what it is even called) is based on rules. Rules that must have the ability to change or they will stagnate. The RC in my opinion is headed to the latter.

I think the long history of the Catholic Church (and the fact that it is still around) shows that it is, in fact, very able to change. It runs along a fine line between maintaining its traditions and being able to be valid in the modern age. It likes to pretend that it is founded in traditions developed 1500 or more years ago, but it has gone through changes (slow, sometimes belated changes born of necessity, to be sure). I wish I knew more about the Church's history, or I'd give examples. *sigh* This is one of those subjects that I hope to study when I have time, like when I retire.


But on topic: I saw the same news story and thought "Why would the church not be bending over backwards to accomodate this girl and her mother? Isn't it more important to nurture the faith of a young person rather than squelch it?

[Scayde]

I wasraised Catholic..If someone askes, I will still say that I am..but in truth..I am not..there is much about the 'Christian" Church that stands in the way of my being, what I percieve, and believe, to being the best follower of the teachings of Jesus that I can manage to be. This one of them. Here we have an organization trying to box in God...Who are they to say that the child's communion was not valid..Christ broke the bread and said..."eat.this is my body....do this in remember of me...then he took the wine, and said Drink.this is my blood...do this in rememberance of my sacrifice that you may live...


He also said....I and the Father am one...

And He said: From the beginning, I was with the Father...

And he said: "If those who lead you (plur.) say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in heaven,' then the birds of heaven will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. But the kingdom is inside of you. And it is outside of you. "When you become acquainted with yourselves, then you will be recognized. And you will understand that it is you who are children of the living father. But if you do not become acquainted with yourselves, then you are in poverty, and it is you who are the poverty."


..(My interpretation of this is that if Yeshua, the one on whom the Catholic Church 'Says' it basis its teachings was saying that he was with the creator from the beginning..that the creator is within us all..and that he and the creator are one and the same...then he taught that God is in everything, every where, there is nothing you can not see, taste, smell or hear that does not contain an aspect of the Divine.....Now..If God is in EVERYTHING...Who is the Pope to say that he wasn't in that rice cracker? )


Anyway..for those who might be interested....The Jewish Followers of Yeshua call Holy Communion Celebrating the "Kiddush"

Here is their ritual...


Sabbath Challah Recipe

2 packages dry yeast
1/3 cup sugar
2 cups lukewarm water
6-7 cups flour (Note, they do NOT specify wheat flour)
2 teaspoons salt
2 eggs
1/3 cup vegetable oil



Make your own delicious Challah bread at home. It may be used for the "Kiddush" ("Blessing" of the bread and wine) portion of your Sabbath meal, at "erev Shabbat" (Friday evening) or Sabbath afternoon, or any time you have a special fellowship meal with other believers (such as on annual Holy Days other than Unleavened Bread).



Combine yeast and sugar in a large bowl. Add the lukewarm water and stir until yeast dissolves. Let it sit for about 10-15 minutes. Add salt and about 3 1/2 cups of flour. Beat until texture is smooth. Add 1 egg and the oil, and then mix well. Stir in 2-3 cups of flour or more, until the mixture forms a soft dough. Roll the dough onto a slightly floured surface and knead it until it is smooth. Add flour while kneading to keep the dough from becoming sticky. When the dough is smooth (after kneading it several minutes), punch a small hole with your finger. When the dough bounces back, it is ready to rise. Place the dough in a well-greased bowl and turn to grease all the sides and the top. Cover with a wet towel and let it rise until it doubles in size. (This recipe may be covered with a lid and refrigerated all night.) After this first rising, punch the dough down and divide it in half. Divide each half into three equal parts. Roll each third into a long strip, and then braid three together. (It is easier to begin the braid in the middle and press the ends underneath so they will not unravel. Place each loaf into a greased loaf pan or on a greased sheet and cover with a wet towel. Let it rise again, for about an hour. Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Mix remaining egg with 1 Tsp. water and brush the loaves for a shiny crust. Bake for 23-26 minutes, or until golden brown.



The Blessing (the "Kiddush")



At the beginning of the meal, we bless God for providing the "bread" (challah), and partake of it, and then bless Him for the wine, and partake of it, following the example of Christ. The words of each blessing are shown below. Only a red wine should be used (or grape juice for children). After this ceremony, the regular meal is served. The prayer of blessing should be similar to this:



1) BREAD "Blessed are you, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who provides bread from the earth."

In Hebrew: Baruch attah Adonai, Elohenu, Melek ha olam, Ha motzi lechem min ha eretz.



"Thank you, Lord, for the meaning and symbolism which this bread, which represents, the broken body of our Lord Jesus Christ, Yeshua our Messiah, who said, 'I am the bread of life,' and that whoever eats of Him will 'live forever.' And the last night before His death, He told His disciples, 'Take, eat, this is my body; do this in remembrance of me,' and so, Father, we

partake of this bread remembering our Lord Jesus Christ, and the price He paid for our sins. By doing this, we proclaim our acceptance of His sacrifice for us. In His name we pray, Amen."



2) WINE "Blessed are you, O Lord our God, King and Ruler of the Universe, who gives us the fruit of the vine."

In Hebrew: Baruch attah Adonai, Elohenu, Melek ha olam, boray pre ha gafen.



"Thank you, Lord, for showing us the meaning of partaking of this wine, as a symbol of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, Yeshua the Messiah, who poured out His blood to cover our sins, and who said, 'Drink ye all of it, for this is the blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins,' and, 'do this, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.' So, Father, we drink of it, now, in remembrance of the shed blood of Christ, knowing that as often as we do this, we proclaim His death till He comes, and acknowledge Him as our Saviour and Redeemer. In Yeshua's name, Amen."

[Scayde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwalchmai But on topic: I saw the same news story and thought "Why would the church not be bending over backwards to accomodate this girl and her mother? Isn't it more important to nurture the faith of a young person rather than squelch it?

Sadly, sometimes the Church gets in the way of people who would rather follow Christ, than the Dogma of the insitution..I know this to be true on a very personal level.

[Chanak]

Absolutely not, or yes - depending on who you ask, and what you're referring to. The Roman Catholic Church bases it's authority on matters of salvation according to tradition, which may or may not find mention in the collection of books they canonized over a thousand years ago (the bible most are familiar with). The heart of this tradition states that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, the Priest is the intermediary between sinners and an angry Christ, etc (Mary was added at some point; she could be prayed to as an intermediary as well, since she is supposed to be sitting by Christ's side in heaven). Although the name of the doctrine escapes me, in the RCC communion that wafer is supposed to become the actual body of Christ through a mystical process, and the wine becomes the bona fide blood of Christ. The ritual the priest conducts - which is elaborate - makes this happen. It's not a matter of symbolism at all, so I suppose the answer to your question Dave, taking the RCC view, is yes, God does care.

To the Protestant denominations it is a matter of pure symbolism. Although this is the official stance of most, just about all use grape juice or something similar (the mainstream, anyway), and crackers of some kind. It would seem to me that it does matter, but the response to this is very vague, and most Protestant pastors I have discussed doctrine with usually shift uncomfortably in their seat when I ask them about this. In the end, the answer seems to be "we've always done it this way." Still, despite this, most Protestant churches will make exceptions for their flock when needed. So, the Protestant answer would be "no, it's the spirit that matters." God doesn't care about little details like that.

Myself, I don't feel whomever/whatever started the ball rolling on the universe gives a whit about any of this, or related matters. People naturally have their own views about things, and view the same events differently from one another without intending to do so at all. Law enforcement agencies are well aware of this natural phenomenon. People also commit mistakes without meaning to, which illustrates that by design, we aren't perfect. To me, religion is an invention of humanity, an attempt to box up things spiritual in a tidy fashion. It's been used to control, conquer, and divide. The spiritual was there first before the religion was, and things spiritual were meant to be experienced by the individual. By itself, the spiritual is a subjective thing...religion is an objective thing. I think this girl is suffering needlessly at the hands of others who have exercised control over the lives of others for a very long time.

@Scayde: Great post.

[giles337]

well i'm not christian, and i don't belive in god, but i do think the church is horrifically hypocritical, and that if that worship is about YOU, not wha the church says.

[dark_raven]

hmmm... the roman chathlic church... to restricting. i mean... do they expect you to also have wine with the bread in comunion!?! yea, i'd like to see that hold up in a court... "well your honor, wine is part of comunion. can i help it that a 7 year old took comunion and got intoxicated by it"... you know what i mean. <*stupid people, they are*>

[dragon wench]

Actually, I read in an article about this incident that some of the churches *do* in fact expect all to partake of the wine, including alcoholics. Apparently grape juice is not an acceptable substitute in many cases....

[Weasel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld If what you're saying is that the RC church has to get off it'e keister and change with the times, then I'm all for that.

Somewhat close to what I mean. The main point of my view is the ability to compromise for the good of all.

Take a person born without a right hand and a religion that says the only way you can be saved is if you use your right hand. Should this person be beyond saving in the eyes of this religion because of the way he or she was born?