Divorce and Individualism

[CM]

Now before i start off on the subject, i will make clear a rule about spam. I don't have one. I don't care if you spam or if you don't. Keep it relevant. Quips about women being annoying and stuff will be ok. But i suggest you spam after the thread has died or that fable and CE don't post in it anymore. Now on to the topic.

I am by nature a conservative so i view marriage as an extremely important thing. Not that liberals don't but i go for the good old fashioned religious definition of it being required and a very big deal. I come from a conservative society where the collective is more important than individual needs and the existance of arranged marriages where people have to learn to compromise regardless of what they think or feel if they wanna live life within the confines of the rules defined by the society and collective.

Now divorce rates have been increasing over the years around the world most noticably in the west. Mainly the US and Western Europe. Also the amount of marriages have decreased. People rather live together or have childern out of wedlock and there are a great deal of children born to single parents.

These are also societies where the individual is held to be more important that the collective (or society). Individual needs or desires are paramount. You don't work or get a job for your sister or your friend. You get it for yourself. You take care of yourself and your wife or girlfriend. Your sister and parents do the same for themselves. There is a far greater emphasis placed on the needs and desires of the individual instead of society.

Now with the rise of individualism you see an unhealthy increase in divorce rates. This can be attributed to say people getting married young and thus being extremely stupid, or that the sense of "individuality" over rides the need to compromise and be understanding. Basically even though you are in a marriage and there is a need in a marriage to work collectively, people still act or think individually. That leads to failure in communication and in the end result of divorce.

Last point i personally believe people take marriage too lightly when getting involved and get a divorce to quickly seeing it as the best way to "win".

[giles337]

Now before i start off on the subject, i will make clear a rule about spam. I don't have one. I don't care if you spam or if you don't. Keep it relevant. Quips about women being annoying and stuff will be ok. But i suggest you spam after the thread has died or that fable and CE don't post in it anymore. Now on to the topic.

That Said:
I think fas wants a divorce from BS

Now I've annoyed Cimmy
Personally, I have the complete opposite viewpoint to you, I think marriage is often pointless these days, becuase, as you said, divorce is rife. This is not to say there are no marriages which aren't beautiful, and a great union. But i think all the furor ove gay marriage is moot, purely for the fact, if a couple want to be together, not much can stop them, and the converse if they don't. The only reaosn i support gay marriage, is if the rest of the world can have a stupid bonding ceremony, why can't they?
As you said, childbirth being taken too lightly, and children born in single parent famiies is a problem, and there is one simple way to deal with it. Education.

[Luis Antonio]

CM, I guess you wont agree with me, but this is a discussion forum.

Divorce is an important tool in society. Some people get married and hate themselves. Divorce is a solution. You go, finish the mistake, and you pay for the consequences. Oh, she divorced of you because of the money? Why you married someone who's gonna use you in the first place?

People either dont think or dont want to get married when that happens. Many many friends of mine married because of a pregnancy. I almost fell to that, but for my good or bad an accident happened in the middle of that. They get married too soon because of passion, and stop studying, living, because of sex and its consequences. No, I dont mean that you shall avoid sex - but make it safe. Getting married wont help you to have better/safer sex.

I see nothing wrong with conservative societies. But it seems too simplistic for me to simply ban divorce, or to simply ban people who live together, or who "date" (I mean become boyfriends for the rest of their lives). Maybe a better educational sistem, or better psichological support should be more effective than discrimination.

I used to dream, when younger, to live a long life by the side of a wife, and suffer all I had to suffer to stay with her no matter what. Now my dreams are different. I want to live by the side of a woman, and to love and to be loved, and to do not lose the judgement to tell when to stop, finish a relationship. Heart wounds take a while to heal, but an eternal cicle of depression and despise destroys more than anything.

[Cuchulain82]

What makes divorce so necessarily bad? Is it better to keep unhappy people in a relationship than to allow them to mutually leave?

I am generally left leaning and I am not religious. I am, however, a student of philosophy. Many of the thinkers who have shaped the west, at least in modern times, have been big fans of individual rights- Hobbes, Locke, Bacon, Rousseau and many others I'm sure I'm not thinking of. While this doesn't make them right (Locke was brilliant and well ahead of his time, but insisted that slavery was totally reasonable as a consequence of war- PM me about that one!), it does mean that most of western society is pretty keen on individual rights- indeed, democracy as we know it rests heavily upon good civil rights. So, it is pretty hard to have a society built around a democratic idea but with restrictions on individual rights and choice. At the very least the question becomes "which rights are restricted?" or "who chooses what rights are guaranteed?" and down the spiral we go...

Divorce now is a way for people to get out of a bad situation, and gives power to women- something they have been lacking in for most of western history.

These are also societies where the individual is held to be more important that the collective (or society). Individual needs or desires are paramount. You don't work or get a job for your sister or your friend. You get it for yourself. You take care of yourself and your wife or girlfriend. Your sister and parents do the same for themselves. There is a far greater emphasis placed on the needs and desires of the individual instead of society.

Now with the rise of individualism you see an unhealthy increase in divorce rates.

I don't agree with the underlying premise of your argument- that individualism has lead to divorce and divorce had made society worse. What if you said that an increase in selfishness in society in general has lead people to not be as willing to deal with consequences of their actions? That I would be more willing to agree with. But under this light divorce would not be a cause, but rather a symptom- do you agree with that?

[ik911]

I think the higher divorce rate is because people no longer see marriage as a divine binding between two people, because religion is fading under the influence of science and free education.

Another effect of the disappearing of religion is that communities, once united by faith, are slowly falling apart because of different views on things, the latter not being a bad thing, because it is good that people form their own opinions, but it will eventually be at the cost of the community feeling, among other consequences, both positively as negatively.

I think the same influences that cause divorce, cause individualization. There are changes going on globally.

[Bloodstalker]

I look at high divorce rates and tend to think that a lot of people are just rushing things presicely because it's supposed to be the thing to do.

For instance, the area where I live, people bring their children up believing that marriage is the ultimate fulfillment of what life is supposed to be. People are raised thinking that their purpose is to get married, get a good job, and raise children. In many instances, it's like unless you do these things, then your life has no meaning, so as a result, a lot of young people are getting married before they have even had a chance to figure out who they are, what they want out of life, or where they want to be in ten years, let alone know what they need from a partner. A lot of kids get married straight out of high school, and most of them wind up miserable and divorced in less than five years simply because they just aren't the same person they were when they got married, so their needs in a partner have changed as well.

It also doesn't help that quite a lot of people tend to make stupid decisions on who to marry. I have seen many people marry someone because they "love" them, while at the same time admitting that there are things they want to change about the person. And for the most part, the person fails to change, which should be obvious from the start.

I don't think it has as much to do with the idea of religion dying out or becoming less important so much as it has to do with bad decisions, pressure to get married placed on children during their upbringing, etc. I can't speak for anyplace else, but the US is currently riding a strong streak of conservatism and a revival of sorts of the ideas of family morality, religious principles and the belief that returning to those conservative ideas will somehow right all the wrongs there are. You can see it in the recent elections, the crackdown after the Janet Jackson Super Bowl incident, the fight against gay marriage, hell, even in certain commercial areana. For instance, NFL.com has stirred up a load of controversy by releasing a long list of banned words that they will not allow to be put on jersies that you custom order from them. Among the words banned are the words gay, Easy, lesbian, and tounge. Regardless of the fact that they already sell stick jersies with the names Gay and Tounge because those are actual player names.

I don't think it makes sense to ban divorce though. Living in a miserable relationship, even if it's one of their own making, is no answer. Too many people suffer, the husband and wife, the children being raised in a bad envirnment, family having to deal with their issues. Besides, I don't think the gov has any right to step into my personal life and instruct me in how to conduct myself in my relationships.

[jopperm2]

I'm posting in blatant disregard for my own judgement as there is a lot going on right now in my personal life.. Some of which has to do with marriage. I really can't take an argument right now, but what the heck..

I view marriage not as the next step for a relationship that has gone too far to be called boyfried/girlfriend any more like people tend to be using it now, but as a conscious acknowledgement and effort to become a family. The two people leave their families, join together, and make a new family. Therefore anything that jeopardizes that, IMO, is disrupting the family.

I have heard a lot of people say things like "wouldn't God want me to be happy?" as a justification for getting a divorce. While this isn't too bad when it's just the couple involved I have to say it's quite selfish. If there are kids it's very selfish. I think God would want you to live up to your responsibility and fulfil the contract of marriage whether you like it or not. That includes compromising and not getting into fights all the time. Even if it is just the couple. Say the wife is no longer happy. Now I'm not talking about abuse here. The husband is lazy and whines a lot, doesn't like to clean up after himself, maybe the sex isn't as good as it once was(this always happens). She decides to leave. She's putting her own happiness above a solemn oath taken before God for better or worse. It's selfish and wrong, IMO, to break that just because you don't fancy the relationship any more. Obviouslyu abuse, etc. is another circumstance. The other partner has already broken the contract if you will.

Anyway, what I think this boils down to is the simple question of " Is marriage a sacred agreement ordained by God." I think the answer to that question will mostly determine a person's opinion about the rest of the issue. [/rant]

[Magrus]

Marriage for me is a silly concept. To me, if you love someone, stay with them. If you don't, leave. People grow, and change over time and some people happen to grow closer, and some happen to grow apart. My parents grew apart and divorced. I was 10 when they seperated and I cannot tell you how thrilled I was with that, even at that age. My parents had become abusive to my brother and I, as well as to each other. Rather than getting into fights with each other, they'd shout at each until they became violent and go after my brother and I.

Once they seperated, they both ended up reasonably health and happy individuals once they adjusted to how different things were. My brother and I also noticed a distinct increase in time we could enjoy with ourselves rather than being terrified of whatever outburst would come next.

Marriage is simply some supreme hope of giving your children happiness that is pushed on children now around me, just as BS has said. I was taught at home and in school I was a failure that unless I graduated, went to college, found a nice job and got married to a nice girl and started a family I was a failure. Frankly, I'm going to get all my partying out of my system before I get tied down with going to school for the 6-8 years I plan on and getting into a long-term serious relationship. I want to know I'm happy being calm and settled before I attempt to do so for someone else's approval.

Throwing a party, signing a marriage license and getting mommy and daddy's approval to take someones daughter for the rest of their life means nothing to me. That's a wedding, I don't need that. If I end up with a girl that happens to want that dream wedding thing, fine. She can buy her own dress, pay for the party and invite her folks. Thats not my thing though and I won't have it. I DON'T have any NEED for someone else's approval to run MY life.

It's a personal thing to give to others you care about, marriage and divorce don't come into that. I'm far too charitable to those I care for and I don't care at all about marriage.

[dragon wench]

First of all, let's take a look at marriage from a historical perspective. In its most fundamental form, marriage was a political alliance between noble (landowning) families or different tribes. Beyond any religious concerns, this is one of the primary sources for the taboos we still place on divorce. After all, a marriage cemented a political alliance and therefore, it *had* to hold together.

It is no coincidence, at least in Western European-derived societies, that for the most part elaborate and formal marriage ceremonies were generally the preserve of the upper classes. Commoners generally moved in with a spouse under "common-law." Why? Because there wasn't the same concern over property and political alliances.

Hence, it can be reasonably argued that the entire institution of marriage is in fact archaic.

As far as divorce goes, I agree with what others here have already stated. There are far too many people who rush headlong into committed relationships without giving any thought to the consequences of their actions. They are taught from an early age to believe in the fairytale of love and marriage (as well as the baby carriage), and thus they leap into matrimonial vows with a view that can be summed up as "happily ever after." So, of course, when mundane realities inevitably come crashing down and the fairytale is shattered, many couples cannot cope, and they view divorce as the only solution. And, perhaps it is, had they actually taken the time to get to know one another, had they taken the time to seriously consider if they wanted to go this step, they may well have backed away before actually heading up to the alter. The problem is not so much divorce itself, but rather a society that pushes people into believing in fairytales.

Even when people think carefully about going down the road of commitment, and even if they have a relationship/marriage that endures a long time, those people can change, sometimes dramatically. I know of at least one couple who have been together for about 15 years, both individuals have changed significantly during that time, they have spent at least the last five years trying to deal with that fact. Last I heard, they were seriously considering divorce, and not through want of trying to make things work either.

Where children are involved I sincerely believe that it is far better for a child to be in a situation where the parents are divorced, than in a home where there is continual stress and fighting.

I am not the sort of person who believes life must be one happy and rosy moment after another, all relationships have ups and downs. But when there are only downs, when you come to loathe the mere sight of the other person, when the relationship begins to negatively overshadow every aspect of existence, then clearly it is time to consider one's options and re-evaluate a situation.

[Moonbiter]

Marriage has become fashion. So has infidelity. The one thing can't exist without the other. Hell, how can you do the ultimate cheating on prime time Big Mother if ya ain't married first? The ultimate "reality tv" is to get some retard to bang his own mom on prime TV, and then go on to say "I was abused" on Ricky or Jerry or whathaveye. Take a step back and look at our Hollywood idols, and how they treat marriage. It lasts for about fourty second, with cheating, stealing and general "born behind a barn" attitude all around, and then they project it to us!!!!!!

My Mom & Dad(tm) has been married for 40 years this year! Funny thing was that back in the early 60s the protestant church up here on the reef wouldn't marry them, so they had to go to my mom's (catholic backwater) country to get married. That takes some.

They have fought, they have *****ed AND they have griped for 40 years, and of course divorce has been an issue during that time, as all their friends separated and went on to obscurity, BUT they're still together and, in their peculiar way, love each other through everything.

So.... Shouldn't the question be:

WHAT KEEPS US TOGETHER???

[Macleod1701]

Marriage for me is a complete waste of time, although you do get some tax benefits from being married which is a great thing.

Now I love my gf, I want to stay with her, we have a house together and have had lots of sex without being married. I don't see the point of getting married as it wont change anything about our relationship in my eyes. However I know that it is something that she wants to do at some point and if we decide to have kids she definately wants to get married just so that they are brought up by parents with the same surname, (I think, may just be the stability issue) which I'm happy to do if it makes her happy.
Like I said it wont change anything between us to get married so it's effectively an outdated concept, especially as neither of us beleive in any gods or religion. If we are to do it it will be for stability not so that some hippie religion thinks we're holy or whatever the hell they think marriage to mean.

I'm not having a go at the people who beleive in marriage from a religious point of view, I just think it's very funny. Both our sets of parents are married, never divorced by the way.

[frogus23]

Originally Posted by CM

I come from a conservative society where the collective is more important than individual needs and the existance of arranged marriages where people have to learn to compromise regardless of what they think or feel if they wanna live life within the confines of the rules defined by the society and collective.

If presented with a free choice, I would wager that a substantial proportion of people would prefer not to live within the confines of a conservative and community minded society if it would mean they married who they wanted. Even if it were to the detriment of their own culture. I can certainly appreciate the benefits of having a rigidly enforced family structure - but an arranged marriage is not simply like a traditional 'western' marriage. It will benefit the family, but not the individual, who is stifled by involuntarily committing to a massive project that they themself did not chose.

Originally Posted by CM

Now divorce rates have been increasing over the years around the world most noticably in the west. Mainly the US and Western Europe. Also the amount of marriages have decreased. People rather live together or have childern out of wedlock and there are a great deal of children born to single parents.

These are also societies where the individual is held to be more important that the collective (or society). Individual needs or desires are paramount. You don't work or get a job for your sister or your friend. You get it for yourself. You take care of yourself and your wife or girlfriend. Your sister and parents do the same for themselves. There is a far greater emphasis placed on the needs and desires of the individual instead of society.

So, it is dangerous to equivocate between 'the collective' and 'society'. The 'collective' that you seem to be talking about is the extended family, which is in no sense the same thing as 'society'. This is deomonstrated by the historical fact that governments who have espoused 'family values' have not been largely socialist governments, or anything like it.

So when you say that disregard for the institution of marriage correlates with individualism and hence lack of concern for society, I would call this mapping unrelated data together. Take Scandinavia - in Sweden over 60% of marriages end with divorce. Are the Swedes much more individualistic than, for example the citizens of the United States (who's marriage/divorce rate hovers below 50%)? I doubt it, but possibly.
Are the Swedes much less concerned for their society than the citizens of the United States? Their voting habits indicates exactly the opposite, IMO.

Originally Posted by CM

Last point i personally believe people take marriage too lightly when getting involved and get a divorce to quickly seeing it as the best way to "win".

But as I have argued, reinforcing the sanctity of marriage, the value of marriage, does not benefit 'society' over the individual. It benefits 'family' over the individual. Therefore you will need to produce some evidence to suggest that marriages have innate value to make this case.

[C Elegans]

Whereas I agree with what most people have already posted here about divorce, I have some comments regarding the fundaments of CM:s question.

I find Moonbiters, Cuchulains and DW:s posts very helpful to point out those fundaments.

First, as Moonbiter posts, what keeps us together? You are a religious man Fas, so you view marriage as a phenomena with a divine connection, an act that is sacred and connects man with god in some way. This perspective will perhaps lead you to draw different conclusions that my perspective, that marriage is a historical social construction with an evolutionary underpin.

I do think however that both you and I can agree that the ultimate function and purpose of the family is to keep mankind alive. (Your god wouldn't like us to go extinct, would he?) One man and one woman is the smallest possible reproductive unit. If we look back at the history of mankind, we originally lived in groups, not in core-families, and those group did not have couple-units of the same type as we have today. Those groups were similar to how chimps live today - the entire group looked after the common kids, both males and females had more than one partner, a female and a male could stick together for a while but separate later and pick somebody else, or they could have several partners in parallell. (Mind you, these were homo sapiens just like you and me, they were not early hominoids.) So in the beginning there was no marriage at all. Then, as man ceased to live as nomadic hunter-gatherers and started agriculture, came the concept of private property. (There are still societies today where private property does not exist, everything belongs to the community - note the correlation between long term monogamous couple-forming as marriage and the concept of private property)

Originally Posted by DW

In its most fundamental form, marriage was a political alliance between noble (landowning) families or different tribes.

Thus, I would like to argue that the concept of marriage appeared when human life went from communal to more individual. Marriage was an instrument to keep and transfer wealth within a small group.

Humans are group living species, and the large brains we need for our language and other higher cognitive skills, means we are born very helpless and undeveloped compared to other species. Adult individuals must take care of the offspring for many years. Whether this caring of children is done by a group, a man-woman couple, a same sex couple, a single adult, or whatever form, matters little from the perspective of the child's health. Psychological studies of children show that children develop more self-confidence and feel more safe when they have many adults they are close to and trust, rather than only one or two. So some support for group rearing of children.

Marriage or divorce seems to have no effect. In Sweden, where divorce rates have been very high since the 1970's, there has been numerous studies comparing children raised in intact core families and children whos parents divorced. No differences have been found at any level - not in psychological or physical health, school performance, subjective happiness and wellbeing, social life, etc.

So, if divorce and single parenting doesn't affect the health of the children, why should it be anything wrong with it?

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

I don't agree with the underlying premise of your argument- that individualism has lead to divorce and divorce had made society worse. What if you said that an increase in selfishness in society in general has lead people to not be as willing to deal with consequences of their actions? That I would be more willing to agree with. But under this light divorce would not be a cause, but rather a symptom- do you agree with that?

As Cuchlain writes, I agree with you and him that there is an increase in selfishness and egocentrism in modern Western society, and there is also a decrease in both understanding and willingness to take the consequences of your actions. However, individualism, unwillingness to take the consequences of your own actions and divorce, are three different things that affect each other, but one does not cause the other, they are seperare.

Marriage in itself in a concept that emerged from increasing individualism, where humans moved from group living to family living. Marriage is closely associated with family values. Then, in current society, family living is more and more replaced with individual living. And out goes the marriage. Nothing wrong with this, IMO, since it cause no harm as I described above.

What is wrong, is the refusal and lack of understanding for taking responsibility for the consequnces of your actions and the egocentrism that makes people see only themselves and their immediate surrounding. This, you see in all parts of Western society. Everybody want a maximum of money for a minimum of effort, be it at the cost of others. Many people can't dream of sharing even their excess of weath with poor or sick people. Property and material possessions are more worth than human lives. This is not just individualism, this is the destructive combination of egoism and egocentricity paired with materialism.

Then, you add the lack of understanding of consequences. I know you are from a different culture Fas, but in the Western world we have an entire generation of people who really expect that everything should be given to them for free, so to speak. A good job, happiness, a good sex life, love, wealth - these are things you take for granted that you have a right to, these are not anymore things you struggle to get. The world they have been brought up in has been so protected so they don't even realise there are consequences of their actions and they don't realise you may have to do something in order to gain something. (As an example, just look at all the teens complaining they are bored. You see it often at this very board. Do you see how absurd it is to complain to others that you are bored because you choose do stay passive? )

This is a general sociocultural problem IMO, and not taking responsibility for marrying and getting children is just one of many symptoms.

[CM]

Place holder Editted - i was mean

[Ariona]

I ended up divorcing my husband because I caught him cheating on me in our living room while I was getting up from our bedroom to use the loo. At that time, I didn't see divorce as a way to "win" but rather a way of letting him know that marriage is a holy and sanctified union and it should not be taken lightly. I didn't want to be a statistic, but I wasn't going to put up with his infidelity. Catching him while we were both in our home didn't help matters any. It hurt me so bad. I don't know if I will ever get married again. I suppose only time will tell.