Demi-gods, avatars, and nonsense.

[Waverly]

Let me state first that if you purchase a game, I have no problem with you doing whatever you like with it. That includes using trainers, cheats, etc. Use the game any way you enjoy it (goes without saying that I prefer to finish games without such adulterations.)

My rant is: with the trend towards games utilizing more and more powerful characters, and the way people tend to want to make them even more powerful than the game even intended, what is left? Everyone seems to want to be a demi-god, wielding 2 +5 weapons, casting level 9 spells, wearing dragon plate, all while shooting lightning out of their arse. The rarity of powerful items and magic is what made them special, and there should always be an item or power that you simply can't have. Instead we are in a kind of RPG arms race. The problem is that you must suspend disbelief to enter into the RPG world and that becomes more and more difficult as everyone becomes a god. Ideally I would like to see a game that got back to the core Tolkein-like atmosphere, with game 'tweaks' being impossible. Thoughts? Flames?

[Gruntboy]

I agree. How many more super-powerful mages with golem armies must we overthrow?

How 'bout a strategic game next? Levl 9 Fighters are lords in AD&D. Can't we have one where you have to do keep-wuest style things on a grand scale. Even a lvl 20 fighter could get killed when a 20K army of orcs and goblins steamrollers his lands...

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The Black Pig of Disaster lets rip with a retch-inducing yellow fog!

[Anatres]

Hummmm, most interesting.

I always finish a game in 'game design' mode first. Then I'll use any 'console cheats' I deem fit to replay the game. This is just to enhance my enjoyability (as such). This is particularily true with all the BGxx games as their replayability is somewhat limited. BG II is a slight exception with all the side-quest, strongholds, etc. that abound.

I do tend to agree that powergaming for the sake of powergaming is a bit adolescent. This is what turned me off to on-line gaming (Diablo I and all the PK'ers).

But, anyone that wants to write trainers, hacks, etc. and those that want to use them are more than free to do so. I happen to feel that it's your money and your style so go for it.

[Weasel]

[quote]Originally posted by Waverly:
all while shooting lightning out of their arse.

How did you find out about my super secret one time use special move. http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/eek.gif

Yes .I'm a power gamer, but I play against a computer, not a real person.

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

[Gruntboy]

I don't think his rant is against powergaming. I think he's talking about worlds filled with Nth level parties, wands of butt-kicking, swords of holy a$$ whupping, armies of demi-draco-liches, flying Verbeeg balloon ships and Elves that cr*p rogues stones.

[Weasel]

ROFLMAO ..That would be the worlds to go to. http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

[Waverly]

Bingo, Grunt. That is pretty much the gist of it. As for powergamers, as long as you don't bring it online, it's your nickel. I did say my ideal game would prevent such mods, but only to emphasise what an accomplishment it would be acquire a unique item or power - not because I have a personal problem with powergames.

The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that, with it, Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits in Thy mercy.' And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu...

[This message has been edited by Waverly (edited 01-10-2001).]

[FoulDwimmerlaik]

@waverly: Right on. I'm waiting for a real Middle Earth game that focuses more on quasi-realistic fantasy, in depth character prgression, mind excerices, puzzles, etc., and less on god-like mages infesting the land several hundred per square mile. The deal for me is immersion and escapism. Tolkien was the master, and for good reason. The willful suspension of disbelief is one thing, but come on.

LOTR is coming out in theatres next Christmas, and I've heard rumors about a wickedly in-depth RPG to be released as well. Yeah commercialism!

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I will drive my enemies before me, take their souls and listen to the lamentation of their women echo in the Cavern of Khazad-dum.

[Gruntboy]

Yup. When was the last time you had a *big* fight? You don't need fancy-maggicks and pitfiends to have fun.

How's about a bunch of low level archers and footsoldiers, led by your's truly, getting pounded on by, oh, say 50 orcs. *That* would be fun.

And I ain't talking about warcraft or cr*p like that. It has to be AD&D stylie. Whats wrong with companies of 0th or 1st level fighters batting away at each other - bit of resource management and secondary hero development, voila!

[Drakron Du´Dark]

I am going to rain on your parade.
There is a big fight for Rigths on the Tokkien story lines sierra vr tokkien so the game is not very likely to see the shelf.
about the original question.
yes, but Irenicus is a 30 lv mage and you fall short about 10lv behind him, and this is Amn the trade nation, so +2 weapons are fairy common here,there a no 2000 orcs vr the party because of the Frame rate so there are more powerful enemys to give you a somthing to chew, I play a F/M and she is quite capable of going one on one without +3 weapons or a fancy +3 armor.

[FoulDwimmerlaik]

AYEEIEE! A fight over the rights? You have made my day grim and fell indeed. This game must be placed on the shelves....

[Ubik]

Sad thing that you said about the Tolkien game, Drak. In fact, though, there should be a more balanced game. And I think our friend has - some - right in his complains. But, still, we are talking about fantasy here, so everything is allowed. And it is up to each one of us, of how much fan we have in playing the one or the other game.

Yup, gents, give us the original! Give us the LOTR world!!! After all, this is how EVERYTHING in rpg and crpg started!!!!


BTW Drak, why are you not taking part in the adventure? We are in an encounter, in the planar sphear topic. Ride on!!!

[Gruntboy]

Soooo you're saying you *disagree* that the game is designed to create high-level high-jinx characters in a world populated by too-powerful adversaries?

Maybe we're not all gaming-gods like you Drakron http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/biggrin.gif. Personally I find it difficult to go through the game without my +3 plate and Crom Faeyr.

[Doltan]

I'm not really sure what the complaint is. Yes, BGII has too many high level characters, NPCs, and baddies (way too many from a PnP perspective). But the low level stuff was exhausted in BGI. I've replayed the first game nearly 4 times (players "retire" at level 7-8, just like in PnP at level 10-12), and I was more than ready to see a sequel with higher level spells, weapons, etc. available. Yes, my party is carrying around too many >+3 weapons, but I carried plenty of basic weapons around for 300+ hours in the first, more realistic game.

[Waverly]

My 'complaint' (actually more something I wanted people to think about) was the trend toward super-players in general. Don't get me wrong and think I don't games such as BGII or Torment- I just think we are a short distance from wielding the longsword +6 of ludicrous titan strength. Would you disagree that the trend is venturing further and further from intent of PnP? Let's take a look at a quote from TSR's DMG 2nd edition:

"One of the great temptations for players is to create super characters. While this is not true of every player all the time, the desire for power above everything else afflicts most players at one time or another. Many players see their characters as nothing more than a collection of numbers that affects game systems. They don't think of their characters as personalities to be developed. Players like this want to "win" the game. These players are missing out on a lot of fun...If you decide a character is too powerful, the player has two choices. First, he can agree to weaken the character insome fashion subject to your approval). This may be as simple as excluding a few magical items ("No, you can't bring that holy avenger sword +5 that shoots 30-dice fireballs into my campaign!"). Second, the player can agree not to use some special ability ("I don't care if your previous DM gave your character the Evil Eye, you can't jinx my dice
rolls!")."