Demi-gods, avatars, and nonsense.

[Waverly]

Cernd fake talking a dragon was mostly a joke, as is Cernd. I vow to kill him if I attempt an evil quest.

That Gandalf dies is a fact. It is my opinion that Gandalf would have been an Maia, not a Valar. Correct me if I am wrong, but the same would go for the Balrog or Dragon. In fact, (back to facts) Sauron was 'only' an Maia. Melkor, Sauron's mentor, was the Valar, and as such it explains why the greater monstrosties such as balrogs would do his bidding, while they seem indifferent to Sauron. Raise you hand if I am boring you http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by Waverly (edited 01-10-2001).]

Point remains the balrogs and dragons are both Maia - the default answer as to what any of the more powerful creatures actually are.

[This message has been edited by Waverly (edited 01-10-2001).]

[Wookie]

For all you Tolkien fans, about a mile up the road from where I live is a house with a plaque on the front of it that reads "J.R.R. Tolkien, author of Lord of the Rings lived here.". About 2 miles away is another plaque on the front of a modern building marking where the huose he was born in used to be.

Wookie

[FoulDwimmerlaik]

The Istari are a group of five Maia
1) Saruman the White (S. The Traitor)
2) Olorin (mithrandir, gandlaf, grey pilgrim, white rider, the grey, etc)
3)Radagast The Brown (R. The Bird Tamer, R. The Simple)
4 & 5) Allatar and Palando (The Blue Wizards)

Sauron was not an Istari, but yes he was a Maia. That clear it up?

[FoulDwimmerlaik]

@ wookie

You're in Africa?

[Waverly]

Right indeed. My mistake. Valar are the greater gods, followed by Maia of which Istari are a subset. Serves me right for trying to go in depth without fact checking. Substitute Valor for Maia and Maia for Istari in my previous post and I will stand by it http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Wookie]

Foul

No, I'm in Birmingham in UK, where Tolkien lived most of his life. His family still live round here, they regularly have one of them (his son or grandson I think) on the local TV.

Wookie

[FoulDwimmerlaik]

Wookie:
Tolkien wasn't born in the UK. He was born in Blonfontein, South Africa. This place lying to try and capitalize on this?

[FoulDwimmerlaik]

no wait, maybe he was born in uk then immediately left......too long at work, I go home now, thanks all for the discussion, be back in 20 hours (or ten)

[Nighthawk]

As far as the question of wings goes, this should answer it:

"You cannot pass," he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the shadow! You cannot pass."

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

[Wookie]

Foul

No, you are right, he was born in SA, maybe the second place I was thinking of is just another where he lived or where his parents lived before they moved to SA. I've only been past it a couple of times, but the plaque definitely mentions his name and something to do with birth.

Wookie

[Waverly]

Don't have my trilogy at the office, Nighthawk, but the confusion comes in I think a little earlier in the encounter. My memory (which obviously is not perfect) tells me that the first description of the balrog involves "a shadow of darkness like two great wings." This leads many to believe that the latter wings are a metaphor, not actual wings. Clearly, the balrog is more creature of nothingness than substance- but I am with you: he had wings.

[Nighthawk]

Yes, I saw that when I re-read after posting the first time. Darkness and fire.

On second read I think that it is wings of shadow but then the creature is mostly shadow anyway...however I don't remember a case ever of a balrog flying.

Still reading about Gandalf.

[Drakron Du´Dark]

If He could fly he would ba able to suvive the fall.I cant tell you very much since my books are translated.And translated books usualy lost some of the meaning do to translators errors.

------------------
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

[Nighthawk]

They both survived the fall, at least initially, as well as combat during the long fall. However on further review it does seem Gandalf perished in the end after killing the balrog. I can't find the text on-line and don't have the book handy, but found this from one of Tolkien's letters:

"Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference... He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not disincarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest."

It also appears he was sent back not by the Valar, but by Eru, Illuvatar himself.

Hmm...are we WAY off the topic of BG2 or what! http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Waverly]

Tolkein's letters often cast a great deal of light on some of the more difficult concepts. He would also take the time to weave a loose thread (a mistake perhaps) back into the story so that it made sense. Why didn't someone just cast ressurect on him http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/wink.gif