Dating 101

[Vicsun]

Originally Posted by Mr Spanky

I like women with tattoos, especially on their lower back...

I don't understand the tattoo hate either. Butterfly or lower back tribal tattoos are boring and uninspired, but I see nothing trashy in something like this.

[Magrus]

Given that I have been set upon by my bosses sister-in-law and she is planning on sending random young women she knows after me while I am stuck at work in the future...I have something to share.

Dating, in the traditional sense, is flawed. The purchasing of flowers, candies, meals, jewelry, clothing, or whatever else occurs, in order to woo your mate to be is prostitution based on the barter system. Except it is a long term relationship, rather than a 1 night stand for X price. If your "date" feels the need for "gifts" regularly, ditch them. If your date requires jewelry and wine in order to be granted the right to have sex with them, guess what, that IS prostitution, even if you are living with them and are married to them. Just because they don't ask for cash doesn't mean it's a different activity.

[dragon wench]

@Magrus,
I don't entirely disagree with you, but I do think it depends on the context. Sometimes, if in a committed relationship, you enjoy gifting the other person, simply because you care about them.... and it can be a more concrete part of all you share.
Some people here might argue on the nature of the gift and be more inclined to critisize the more expensive and material options over say.. a poem you've written, but I think what it really boils down to is the level of sincerity on both sides.

It is also, I think, about the sense of expectation. If somebody feels entitled to gifts from their date/partner/one night stand/ or whatever... that is obviously wrong. If somebody believes they can use sex as a bargaining chip for gifts, that is equally wrong. I'm not sure I'd go quite so far as to call it "prostitution," but I do see where you are coming from.

[Dottie]

I Agree with both Magrus and DW (If thats possible? )

What is the key question is imo why you are doing things. If you give a present just because you want to, then you can give your partner a new Mercedes or a private jet for all I care, It's shouldn't change anything in a healthy relationship. If the reason you give something is that you want something else in return later then I have to agree that it is a form of barter.

The same goes for your partner. If s/he have sex with you for any reason but the sex itself, then again it is barter. (except for trying for child maybe)

[Magrus]

Wanting to give a gift to someone for the sheer sake of giving one is entirely different from having your partner expect and demand one. I tend to want to give gifts to the people who never ask for them. They tend to appreciate them more because the are unexpected and don't really want to be receiving one in the first place. The moment a girl says "get me this!" I cease to have any interest in doing anything for her at all in a relationship. The gift nature of giving is gone, replaced by feeding a greedy person's materialistic "needs".

I suppose something else to consider is that everyone views things in a different way. Not only that, but everyone takes things in a manner that varies depending on who says them. For example, last night while working, I witnessed a co-worker made several comments which, should I have said them would have gotten me sued for sexual harassment. Comfort levels between everyone, are individual things.

What is fine between person 1 and person 2 is probably going to be different than if random person 3 says the exact same things to person 2. Don't assume that because the person you are about to go hit on has been seen laughing over a comment about their anatomy from someone standing next to them that you can make a similar comment without them knowing you first. Chances are good you will end up offending them. This may sound like common sense, but surprisingly it's all to common for people to lack said sense. Shocking, I know.

[dragon wench]

I cease to have any interest in doing anything for her at all in a relationship. The gift nature of giving is gone, replaced by feeding a greedy person's materialistic "needs".

I entirely agree with you on that point.

I do want to come back to something you said previously and swing it around a bit
You said:

If your date requires jewelry and wine in order to be granted the right to have sex with them, guess what, that IS prostitution, even if you are living with them and are married to them.

I think we are all generally in agreement on how wrong this is. Just as we all seem to concur that it is the purpose behind the giving that defines the whole nature of the act.

It is just as wrong, however, for a guy (or a woman, for that matter) to expect sex in exchange for jewelry, wining and dining. I have had this conversation with quite a few of my male friends when they were trying to figure out what went "wrong." Their side of the conversation went something like this: "I don't get it, I took her to the best restaurant I could afford, we had a bottle of wine with dinner, I paid for a movie, and I *still* didn't get laid."

If a woman is selling her body in exchange for gifts, then equally, a guy is a "John" for buying them and anticipating sex in return.

[Magrus]

Very true, very true. I don't wine and dine girls though, so I've never dealt with that issue. I have lectured guys on the issue however.

I got a good laugh at one of the customers who came in to work about oh, 6 weeks ago? He ordered the most expensive drinks and the most expensive food on the menu during a lunch date. This was after the girl told him what she wanted, and he went ahead and ordered the most expensive things, which wasn't what she asked for mind you. She got disgusted, and went off to eat lunch with one of our regulars. The first man threw a fit, that his $50 lunch for 2 ended up being a lunch for one, and he mumbled to the guys after she left that he wasn't "getting any now".

The funny part is that the girl came back later, with some girls and they ordered some of the cheapest things on the menu, and she complemented us on the food and said she loved it. The waitress asked if she'd be bringing the guy back and she was very clear on the fact she wouldn't be seeing him ever again. She's a regular now, and brings her co-workers in to eat lunch and do work on their laptops once or twice a week for a few hours.

The even funnier part? The guy she won't see anymore? He tried his move on another girl. She's now dragging him in every week and LOVED his spending money on her. He's broke, and I find this amusing. They're a perfect match.

[Claudius]

I like your story magrus. Sometimes getting what we hope for serves us right!

I would add that its not always so cut and dry this issue. One reason to give someone a gift is because you feel good when you make someone you love happy. Simple. A special gesture. Of course you can't always guarantee they will be happy as you hope but nonetheless, the intention of kindness feels good. Your gift could be the traditional rose or the even more traditional genuine smile.

You know if it was desire or kindness by how you react when they don't react as expected to the gift. If you expected a certain behavior then it was desire. With kindness you might be dissapointed in a way if they are not pleased but it is relaxed and you are not pissy. This is all just in my experience.

I think its messy because of codependency and we can get kind of hooked by our emotions. But in the end everyone is their own problem and their mate is not responsible. Kindness is when there is an overflow of good feeling and their partner gets to share in that but it cannot be an obligation.