Creativity and Disorders

[VonDondu]

It appears that the incidence of actual clinical mental disorders among artistic or creative people is very low. However, people who choose to express themselves or become overtly self-conscious or analytical, unlike the general populace, certainly exhibit strange personality traits in the eyes of people who don't indulge such pursuits. In other words, most people think that artists are "crazy" for being artists; it just isn't something that a "normal" person does. Anyone can be creative, but relatively few people choose to be creative in a serious way, so creativity itself seems abnormal. This applies to people in many different creative professions, but artists get the worst rap because "ordinary" people don't want to understand art since anything besides pretty pictures has a tendency to disturb them. This makes them feel that artists must be "disturbed". It's a very real perception, although it has less to do with a true understanding of mental illness than it does with the way that ordinary people view unconventional (or creative) people. There's just something "weird" about people who see the world in a different way.

Everyone has some sort of bias, including me. Personally, I'm less likely to view fashion designers as truly "troubled" than I am to view, for example, creative writers as "obsessive, self-indulgent, out of touch, delusional, and far too willing to waste my time and their own." I can distinguish those traits from actual mental illness, but apparently the distinction doesn't matter to the average layman, or he simply can't understand it.

People don't seem to think that philosophers are "crazy" by default (the initial reaction is "philosophy is cool") unless someone with a philosophical background (like me) tries to have an authentic philosophical discussion with them. When they realize what they've gotten themselves into, then they freak out. The kindest reaction tends to be, "Why do you worry about that kind of stuff?" The worst reaction I've gotten personally is, "How can you think about that stuff? It would make me go crazy!" I ask myself such questions all the time. To be honest, I don't like to think much about philosophy anymore.

C Elegans, I suspect that you yourself might get a similar reaction if you tried to share your life's work with the average layman, although it would probably be less of "you're crazy" and more of "you're driving me crazy!"

[Luis Antonio]

Originally Posted by VonDondu

C Elegans, I suspect that you yourself might get a similar reaction if you tried to share your life's work with the average layman, although it would probably be less of "you're crazy" and more of "you're driving me crazy!"

Heh I bet she would Being "Crazy" is relative. Economists say engineers are crazy, historians say economists are crazy, and so on. I guess sometimes, as in this case, being called crazy may even be looked at as if it is a good thing. I'm teaching my "sister in law" (I have a GF, not a wife) to organize her expenses, and to clear her some debts till the end of the year. She calls me crazy all the time cause she hasnt caught the thing about business - you need to look it as if it was the money dance, and to see you cash as the girl who cant just get laid with everyone, but with the optimal choices.

I dunno what, but this thread seems very nice. Both the scientific and the non scientific views are expressed, and that makes the thread far more suitable for my liking.

[Greg.]

And comparing girls to money isn't insane at all...

[Chimaera182]

Hrm. I don't really need to re-bring this thread up, but I've been thinking about my "creativity" this afternoon. Well, once I found this thread I was, anyway.

I used to think I had a mental illness (several, actually). God knows I'm not "normal," in the "regular Joe American" sense of the word. I tend to have a pretty creative mind; sadly, I don't have the talent to match. There are images and pictures I get in my head that would probably stun the world, but unfortunately I can't even draw stick figures very well. How many of the greatest artists in history needed to be trained, seriously, in order to become so great? I also have a pretty decent mind for stories, which is why I'm an English major now, and my writing is usually good (certainly better than what most people in the U.S. can do). But is this due to my "uniqueness" or just something I was born with or nurtured into? Some people with disorders might be quite creative, but I certainly don't think it's necessary to create a masterpiece.

[VonDondu]

Originally Posted by Chimaera182

I used to think I had a mental illness (several, actually). God knows I'm not "normal," in the "regular Joe American" sense of the word. I tend to have a pretty creative mind...

That is a perfectly normal reaction for a young person who is sensitive and self-reflective. I think it's a defense mechanism, or rather, a coping mechanism. Typically, you start with the question, "What is wrong with everybody else?" and end up asking, "Is there something wrong with me?" The underlying assumption is that whatever is "wrong" with you is actually your source of strength because it makes you better than everyone else. In other words, you are special and unique and different from everyone else. Standard diagnosis: low self-esteem.

Originally Posted by Chimaera182

sadly, I don't have the talent to match. There are images and pictures I get in my head that would probably stun the world, but unfortunately I can't even draw stick figures very well. How many of the greatest artists in history needed to be trained, seriously, in order to become so great? I also have a pretty decent mind for stories, which is why I'm an English major now, and my writing is usually good (certainly better than what most people in the U.S. can do)...

Drawing and writing can be learned, most definitely. There seems to be a common misconception that people are born with talent, but the fact is, nearly everyone who is any good at anything had to learn and practice before they were any good at it. It's hard work.

You're lucky if you have creativity, even if your technique is lacking. Creativity is not easy to learn; but whether you are talking about drawing or writing, it is fairly easy to improve your technique if you work at it. I have taken art and painting classes, and I can assure you that formal training has its benefits. It is clear that technique is just as important as creativity, and it must be learned.

My own complaint is that my writing skills are fairly good, but I don't see the point in writing fiction and I don't feel very creative. Similarly, I am blessed with a good "eye" and a steady hand and I can draw pretty well (my painting technique leaves a lot to be desired), but I don't feel inspired enough to draw (or paint) very often. Maybe my problem is that I'm accustomed to instant gratification and if I want to see a pretty picture, I can look one up in no time at all. "Creativity" is a lot of hard work.

[Chimaera182]

Originally Posted by VonDondu

That is a perfectly normal reaction for a young person who is sensitive and self-reflective. I think it's a defense mechanism, or rather, a coping mechanism.

Hearing a voice in your head telling you to kill everyone isn't the result of or going to cause self-reflection.

[VonDondu]

Originally Posted by Chimaera182

Hearing a voice in your head telling you to kill everyone isn't the result of or going to cause self-reflection.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about such a serious form of mental illness. Most young people experience anxiety (which they often attribute to "paranoia") and states of extreme "self-consciousness". I thought those were the sorts of things you were talking about.

[Chimaera182]

Originally Posted by VonDondu

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about such a serious form of mental illness. Most young people experience anxiety (which they often attribute to "paranoia") and states of extreme "self-consciousness". I thought those were the sorts of things you were talking about.

It's not a big deal; it's not like I hinted at it being anything overly serious. Although I wasn't eager to go into the details of it, either. Anyway, it was just an extremely overactive imagination with no release; that little voice is no longer an issue.

[C Elegans]

Originally Posted by Chimaera182

Hearing a voice in your head telling you to kill everyone isn't the result of or going to cause self-reflection.

Just thought I'd mention that hearing voices is far more common than most people think, and it's not necessarily associated with psychiatric disorder. It's been estimated that about 3% of the population hear voices, and even more may here voices during special circumstances, ie stress, exhaustion.

About 80% of patients with psychotic disorders hear voices, and imperative voices (ie who command you to do things) are the most common. However, only 1/3 people who hear voices are not psychotic and do not have a psychiatric diagnosis at all. Some people interpret their hearing voices as mystical and believe they have medial powers. Others view it simply as annoying, but ignore it. Yet others may need professional help in order to cope and learning to ignore what the voices ask them to do.

[Chimaera182]

Like I said, CE, it wasn't a big deal. The voices and I work together now.

[C Elegans]

Originally Posted by Chimaera182

Like I said, CE, it wasn't a big deal. The voices and I work together now.

Hope it's a fruitful collaboration

No, my post was actually not so much to you as to other people, since I know that most people associate hearing voices with psychotic disorder. I did too until a few years ago when one of my friends and former schoolmates started working with cognitive therapy for "voice hearers".

[Damuna_Nova]

Originally Posted by dragon wench

Equally certain disorders such as Bipolarism, ADHD, Depression and Dyslexia seem to have associations with extreme creativity..

AS too I'd say...

[VonDondu]

Originally Posted by C Elegans

Just thought I'd mention that hearing voices is far more common than most people think, and it's not necessarily associated with psychiatric disorder. It's been estimated that about 3% of the population hear voices, and even more may here voices during special circumstances, ie stress, exhaustion.

About 80% of patients with psychotic disorders hear voices, and imperative voices (ie who command you to do things) are the most common. However, only 1/3 people who hear voices are not psychotic and do not have a psychiatric diagnosis at all...

Would you please clarify those figures for me? It sounds like you're implying that 2% of the population is psychotic and hears voices, while another 0.5% of the population is psychotic but does not hear voices. Those numbers don't seem to match the numbers you posted earlier (they seem too high), although you did not specifically list a percentage for "psychosis".

Originally Posted by C Elegans

No, my post was actually not so much to you as to other people, since I know that most people associate hearing voices with psychotic disorder. I did too until a few years ago...

In light of the figures you just gave us, the association we tend to make between psychosis and hearing voices is understandable.

I was also wondering, is there any relation between hearing voices and hearing music in your head all day? I don't listen to the radio much, but my mind repeats snippets of my favorite music when I'm not doing any kind of work that requires much brain power. For example, I've had Eminem's "Just Lose It" running through my head for the last two days because I watched
an amateur video some college students made (I had never heard the song before). I haven't had much sleep in the last few days, but I don't think that has anything to do with it (although it certainly affects my ability to do math in my head, like I just tried to do when I saw the figures you posted). Do you think there's any connection?

[C Elegans]

Originally Posted by VonDondu

Would you please clarify those figures for me? It sounds like you're implying that 2% of the population is psychotic and hears voices, while another 0.5% of the population is psychotic but does not hear voices. Those numbers don't seem to match the numbers you posted earlier (they seem too high), although you did not specifically list a percentage for "psychosis".

Approximately, yes. You have both chronic psychotic disorders like schizophrenia, disorders where brief episodes of psychosis may occur and disorders that are not psychosis but may include psychotic symptoms. That's why the figures seem high.

Schizophrenia is the most common psychotic disorder. 1% of the population has schizophrenia, and about 80% of those hear voices. Then you have the following disorders that are classified as psychotic disorders:

Schizoaffective - prevalence not know, fairly unusal, some permille
Delustional disorder - about 0.03%
Brief psychotic disorder - prevalence not known, very uncommon, few permille
Shared psychotic disorder - prevalence not know, very rare, less than 1 permille
Psychotic disorder UNS - prevalence not known, not very unusual, probably some permille up to 0.5%. (This diagnosis includes post partum psychosis, hallucination syndromes with no other psychotic features and some other more unusual disorder types.)

Substance induced psychotic disorder - prevalence not known. (This diagnosis includes alcohol delirium and psychosis caused by direct use of or withdrawal syndromes of, drugs. It is not classified as a primary psychotic disorder.)

Then you have some disorder which are not classified as psychotic disorders but episodes of psychosis, or single psychotic or psychotic-like features may occur:

Bipolar disorder - psychotic symptoms may occur in cases of severe mania, prevalence 1.5% but not all have manic episodes and even fewer have manic episodes with psychotic features
Cyclothymic disorder - psychotic features may occur in severe cases, prevalence not known
Autism - psychotic features may occur, especially in patients with a severe retardation. Prevalence for Autism-spectrum disorders are 1.5%, but most have Aspergers (no retardation), not Autism (which include retardation). Of patients with Autism, only a subgroup has psychotic symptoms
Dementia - Alzheimer's and vascular dementia can include psychotic symptoms
Other somatic disorders - there is a variety of neurological, endocrine and autoimmune conditions that may induce psychotic symptoms, ie brain tumours, stroke, severe head traumas, hyper- or hypothyroidism, migraine, hypoxia, etc)

So, adding these groups and subgroups together we will come to maybe 3% of the population having psychotic symptoms at a given time. Of these, about 2% have a "real" psychiatric psychosis. Of these 2%, 80% hear voices. That is 1.6% of the population.

All in all, 3% of the population hear voices. 1/3 of these, ie 1%, are not psychotic nor do they have any other psychiatic diagnosis.

So then you have a 3% group of the population who hear voices, approximately distributed like this:

1.6% patients with a psychosis
0.4% patients with other diagnosis (such as brain tumour or dementia)
1% people with no neuropsychiatric diagnosis

Certainly it is understandable that most people make an association between hearing voices and psychosis since this is the largerst group of voice-hearers, but personally I think 1/3 with no psychatric diagnosis is a surprisingly large part of voice-hearers.

I was also wondering, is there any relation between hearing voices and hearing music in your head all day? I don't listen to the radio much, but my mind repeats snippets of my favorite music when I'm not doing any kind of work that requires much brain power. For example, I've had Eminem's "Just Lose It" running through my head for the last two days because I watched
an amateur video some college students made (I had never heard the song before). I haven't had much sleep in the last few days, but I don't think that has anything to do with it (although it certainly affects my ability to do math in my head, like I just tried to do when I saw the figures you posted). Do you think there's any connection?

Yes I think there is a connection, but this is qualified speculation, nobody really knows why we hear voices or music or any sounds that are not caused by external stimuli causing our eardrums to vibrate. I also think there are various types of auditory hallucinations - some are probably caused by a cognitive dissocation and may be related to something called source memory, wheras another type is probably caused by some sort of "random activity" in the neural circuits, which is interpreted by the brain as meaningful sounds like voices or music. The latter type may well be connected to the phenomenon of hearing music.

Something quite common is also that especially when people are stressed or sleep deprived, we interpret background noises like fans, traffic sound etc as meaningful sounds, often music. This is not called hallucinations but illusions, because the sensory experience is caused by an external stimuli (ie background noise) and not just nothing as is the case with true hallucinations. In this case, I think hearing voices or hearing music, mobile phone signals or other familiar sounds, are equivalent.

[Chimaera182]

I get music stuck in my head a lot. Just now, after reading VonDondu's post, I have that Eminem song in my head. I find it irritating, honestly; last night, I had the "Everyone Else Has Had More Sex Then Me" song stuck in my head for a couple hours, and the day before that, I had the same song in my head. It probably doesn't help that my MSN and MySpace display pics both are of the rabbit who sings that song. But I find that even when my brain plays my favorite song like that, over and over again, I become quite tired of it. It's just annoying. I don't think it's because I'm sleep-deprived; I usually get the average amount of sleep a night. Of course, that doesn't mean my sleep is restful, and if the doctors are right about me having sleep apnea, well, that's a definite no to restful sleep.