Controvercy

[Tom]

Here is a controversial post for you...

Let me first say that i think that yesterdays tradgedy was both wrong and terrible.

But... This should have been expected. frankly the us foriegn policy in the middle east has been morally wrong and dangerous.

In the long run it could only lead to disaster. we are VERY lucky that it wasnt worse (if its over) - it could have been a biological attack.

A whole generation in the middle east has seen the US to be the great enemy and the UK as its willing accomplice. One thing that has angered many arab nations apart from the support for israel is the embargo on Iraque. UNICEF estimates that it is killing 5000 children a month through hunger and deciece. the US/UK policy has been an unmitigated dissaster. saddam is still in power and the whole region hates the US so much that they will celebrate when something like this happens.

im affraid this is only the begining - and the US must bear its part of the blame.

Tom

[Sojourner]

Why are we even over there right now? It's a total waste of dollars. I say pull our troops and businesses completely out.

[Mr Sleep]

@Sojourner I would assume that it is financially motivated.

[Garcia]

I think that it is like an old code, to fight for liberalism and be a kind of policeman of the world.

[Xandax]

The reason for the interest in the middel east is money and oil.

But even because these nations see the US., UK, Israel and the rest of the west as enemies - it is still nowhere near acceptable to say that these countries hold the responcibility for these middel east nations wellbeing.
An act of terror can never be justified even slightly (not saying that the responcibility for this current act is placed there) even though one nations feels oppressed by another.
I feel it is okay to fight for belifs and for ones country, but only if it is a military conflict or military objectives, not terror act agains thousands of civilians.

An act of terror can never be justified - never. And the only responcibility for this is with the terrorist.

[Rob-hin]

Originally posted by Xandax:
<STRONG>An act of terror can never be justified - never. And the only responcibility for this is with the terrorist.</STRONG>

The resonsability with this is not just with the terrorist.
There always is someone who talks into the people (from when they were kids even), someone who makes them beleve thet are doing the right thing. Makes em beleve it's for their contry/relegion/ect.

The people believe it so strongly that they are willing to die for it/him.

[Quark]

Originally posted by Tom:
<STRONG>But... This should have been expected. frankly the us foriegn policy in the middle east has been morally wrong and dangerous.

A whole generation in the middle east has seen the US to be the great enemy and the UK as its willing accomplice. One thing that has angered many arab nations apart from the support for israel is the embargo on Iraque. UNICEF estimates that it is killing 5000 children a month through hunger and deciece. the US/UK policy has been an unmitigated dissaster. saddam is still in power and the whole region hates the US so much that they will celebrate when something like this happens.</STRONG>

Okay, say that Saddam is taken out of power - who takes over. Do you know? Because the highest ranked intelligence officers in the US don't know. Worst Case scenario: a few factions in Iraq compete over taking power, thereby being vulnerable to an attack. Iran procedes to take over Iraq and now is that much more powerful.

Yes, that is a possibility.

As for the embargo, it has been said many times - If Iraq changes its policies, then America will lift the embargo. Saddam has the capability of losing the embargo - he doesn't want to do it. He'd rather spend his time building up his weapons of mass destruction.

[Happy Evil]

Originally posted by Tom:
<STRONG>Here is a controversial post for you...

Let me first say that i think that yesterdays tradgedy was both wrong and terrible.

But... This should have been expected. frankly the us foriegn policy in the middle east has been morally wrong and dangerous.

In the long run it could only lead to disaster. we are VERY lucky that it wasnt worse (if its over) - it could have been a biological attack.

A whole generation in the middle east has seen the US to be the great enemy and the UK as its willing accomplice. One thing that has angered many arab nations apart from the support for israel is the embargo on Iraque. UNICEF estimates that it is killing 5000 children a month through hunger and deciece. the US/UK policy has been an unmitigated dissaster. saddam is still in power and the whole region hates the US so much that they will celebrate when something like this happens.

im affraid this is only the begining - and the US must bear its part of the blame.

Tom </STRONG>

Tom I disagree with you.

The US (my country) may have deserved this, not because of its refusal to bend its foreign policies to the whim of every bleeding heart, cause of the week do-gooder in the world, but because it is the leader of democratic and free societies all over the world therefore a target for the fanatical have nots.

Quark is right, Saddam is taking the food out his childrens mouths and buying tanks and Scuds with it. He is refusing to do business with the US and therefore bears sole responsibility. Tom's suggestion the US is killing 5000 children a day there is outragous. Take a minute to also mention the work and money sent to countries who dont want to kill americans. We take care of our own where I come from, and I suggest Iraq can do the same.

Tom is not wrong about the opinion of the US in some radical Arab countries and my reply is "Who Cares". I do not feel the need to please everyone in the world who has a problem with the US.
That is what liberals are for.


Tom your post is controversial, the majority of what you stated is simply your opinion.
I am curious what you would suggest the US do in the middle east specifically addressing the Israeli - Palestinian question??

I pray for the day that crude oil is no longer needed and the middle east becomes nothing more than a sandy place with pyramids.

Tom is right about one thing, this is only the beginning. The proverbial Genie is out of the bottle and he's pissed.

[C Elegans]

Happy evil, I certainly don't think Tom means the US "deserved this", I think he means that a terrorist attack was expected due to how the US has acted in the Middle East.

Actually, the CNN and BBC reported that US security officals has been saying that a large terrorist attack was expected within the next 10 years.

But the attack came perhaps swifter and certainly in another shape, than was expected

In the US and especially today, Tom's opinions are quite controversial, but I agree with Tom that the US has acted dangerous and immoral in the Middle east previously. But this does not, in any way, excuse terrorism and making it less condemnable.

[Happy Evil]

Dangerous and immoral are still a matter of opinion. Someone needs to say what they feel the US should be doing or not doing in the middle east. Also I am curious what specific actions or policies you guys are calling dangerous and immoral?

[Sojourner]

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
<STRONG>Dangerous and immoral are still a matter of opinion. Someone needs to say what they feel the US should be doing or not doing in the middle east. Also I am curious what specific actions or policies you guys are calling dangerous and immoral? </STRONG>

Exactly, do not come out with blanket statements that the US has blah, blah, blah in the Mideast. There has been far too much bashing of the world's favorite scapegoat already, and it only serves to add fuel to the fire.

[Anatres]

Somehow, I (personal opinion follows) get the sense that those of you who are trying to cast the blame, even partially, on the US for this abhorrent act of terrorism against the US are like the defense attorney that attacks the rape victim for the rape.....

Rethink your positions......

[T'lainya]

Everyone, this is an official request
I'm not sure that this is an appropriate time for this topic. This is bound to cause a great deal of anger and pain.
I am requesting all of you to post civilly..I don't want to see flaming or inappropriate comments about any race, nationality or religion etc.
Thank you ,T'lainya

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: T'lainya ]

[Vivien]

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
<STRONG>I do not feel the need to please everyone in the world who has a problem with the US.
That is what liberals are for.
</STRONG>

Oh yeah?! *Can't think of a good 'pleasing everyone' response to this, but she will.*

In all seriousness, I just feel too sad about this whole event to have a lucid opinion... Is there a reason? Yes. Is it enough of a reason to justify this? No. Will the U.S. go too far? How far is too far?
My initial reaction was that this was all joke yesterday morning, I *couldn't* be real, and to feel some sympathy for the terrorists. Were we oppressing them, had the U.S. killed innocents in the past? But, now I just feel shocked and confused and weary, I don't have any sympathy for people who would kill innocent passengers on those planes, or the innocents in the buildings...

I'm sorry for the rambling...

[nael]

The US definitely has taken some straneg positions in the middle east, and we have always favoured israel depsite their crimes and human rights violations. (we had quite the discussion abotu this in some other thread)
but nothign can justify what took place yesterday.