Community? (flame lightly)

[C Elegans]

Originally Posted by Luis Antonio

That was what I tried to make, but... well, I'm really not gifted with words.

Luis, your contribution to that discussion was the least problematic I think it would be very suitable if you started a new thread (if you want to, of course).

[dragon wench]

@Vicsun,
Initially I was a little annoyed by your post, but after some reflection, I can see how somebody might question the wisdom of possibly reigniting the flames, so apology accepted.
However, I tend to think that sometimes it is better to air things, and I had the very real sense there was still a lot of tension bubbling under the surface, so my intention was to address this. Especially, since the thread in question was locked, which effectively cut off discussion before sentiments had reached a natural peak and then simmered back down. On occasion it can be better to let people have an all out brawl; like a thunderstorm it can aid in clearing the air.

@CE,
Given that this thread deals with the topic of internet community and that the acrimony of yesterday stemmed from some very different visions of what SYM should, or should not, be I felt it was actually an appropriate bump.

As far as my own thoughts on the issues at hand are concerned, I am still reflecting. But, time permitting, I'll see about putting a post together sometime soon. Yesterday I was in a highly volatile frame, which is why I refused to continue posting.

@Luis,
On this particular point, at least, I concur with CE Your posts yesterday weren't offensive at all

[Luis Antonio]

@ CE, DW - Well, I try not to flame. And I wont post, I guess this should heal with time.

[VonDondu]

Originally Posted by C Elegans

Personally I think it would be more interesting to explore questions such as what different members expect and wish from SYM and how such wishes should be achieved...

I think it's a generally interesting question what different members perceive SYM has been and should be like, and I also find the issue of expectations versus what actually happens quite interesting...

You know, of course, how tricky perception can be, and what you're talking about here are people's perceptions of SYM. Personally, I think it would be futile to define "what SYM should be". People see changes in SYM not so much because SYM itself changes, but rather because the way that individuals feel about it changes over time. People get bored and burned out and jaded ("exhausted from overindulgence"--one of my favorite concepts), or things that happen in real life affect the time they spend on here, and they lose the wonderful feelings they used to have. Then they say things like "SYM is not the way it used to be", when what they really mean is, "I don't react to SYM the way I used to." No analysis of SYM can tell you what to do about that.

The same is true of any other human indulgence. Take spaghetti, for example. If I make the same recipe over and over, eventually I will lose my enthusiasm for it even though the spgahetti itself is the same as it has always been. I would say, "I don't enjoy it as much as I used to," or if I didn't know any better, I might say, "It doesn't taste the same anymore." But the only thing that has changed is ME. Would you be foolish enough to try to find a way to make spaghetti that would please me? Don't get me wrong--I would appreciate your effort; but it would be a futile endeavor. It would be better to tell me to try something else for a change. Then maybe in a few months, I might enjoy spaghetti once again.

By the way, I am not actually tired of spaghetti or any other kind of food at the moment, and you are welcome to send me some tasty recipes.

[C Elegans]

Originally Posted by Vondondu

You know, of course, how tricky perception can be, and what you're talking about here are people's perceptions of SYM. Personally, I think it would be futile to define "what SYM should be". People see changes in SYM not so much because SYM itself changes, but rather because the way that individuals feel about it changes over time.

I know perception is very tricky indeed, and that's the reason why I am interested in this subject. I agree with you that it would be futile to have pure discussion that should define "what SYM should be", but what I find interesting would be a discussion about what people think SYM should be like, and a comparison between what people believe, wish or perceive that SYM should be, and what it realistically is.

The reason for my interest in this topic, is that over the years, there have been several conflicts based on different members perception of how SYM should be and what functions it should fill. Some conflicts has concerned "Good old days" versus current status of SYM, as was discussed in Fable's recently closed thread. Other's have concerned old versus new members. Yet others have concerned "spam" versus "serious discussion". If you have the time and inclination to read Fable's "Do we need to split SYM"-thread, you will find several examples: for instance Kayless expressess a certain idea of what he think is the "real SYM", but this idea conflicts with for instance my idea of what SYM should be.

Another such conflict can be traced back in this thread, which was originally started last summer after the death of Ronald Reagan. I am sure you remember this, but for new members who are interested, the discussions can be found here:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/sh...=Ronald+Reagan
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/sh...=Ronald+Reagan
These discussions illustrates several ideas for what factors and principles should regulate content of posts and expression of opinions here at SYM. The main discrepancy can be described as "personal emotions" versus "general principles".

Yet another conflict occurred a couple of days ago, as DW says above.

You see the changes at SYM as very much in the eye of the beholder. Xandax posted here he see changes at SYM as "natural evolution". I agre with you both. However, Thantor and DW describes changes at SYM in this thread as "toxic", "rhetoric" and "callous disregard". Perceptions differ widely here, and as is obvious in both this and Fable's Split-thread, these conflicting have an impact on SYM, both for new and old members. these discussion appear every now and then, so several people seem to find it important. Thus, in my opinion, we should discuss it in order to investigate if negative effects of this can be decreased.

Disclaimer for sensitive people who take things personally: The names and examples used here are used as examples to illustrate a principle. I am not pointing out or accusing certain people, and that's why I have choosed examples where I myself were involved.

Would you be foolish enough to try to find a way to make spaghetti that would please me? Don't get me wrong--I would appreciate your effort; but it would be a futile endeavor. It would be better to tell me to try something else for a change. Then maybe in a few months, I might enjoy spaghetti once again.

By the way, I am not actually tired of spaghetti or any other kind of food at the moment, and you are welcome to send me some tasty recipes.

LOL, I am a lousy cook, so my ability to increase people's fulfillment and pleasure from spaghetti is as limited as my ability to increase the fulfilment and pleasure people get from SYM

This illustrates my general opinion that adult people should take responsibility for their own perceptions and also for situations they willingly have included themselves in. As we discussed above, far too many people do not make a distinction between subjective perception and object they perceive. Taking responsibility for your own perception and situation include willingness to examine your perceptions and compare them with information sources that are outside of your own mind. A good example which I mentioned previously in this thread was when Kayless felt SYM developed into a forum with too much serious discussion and too little spam. Kayless posted his opinions here at SYM, but several users wanted to keep the serious discussions. Thus, he created his own forum where spam was priority No 1 and returned to SYM sporadically when he felt like it.

Examples of not taking responsibility of your own perception, is complaints about how other members make you feel.
"Oh, SYM has become so boring/evil/insensitive/oversensitive, what happened to them good old days"
"Oh, I feel so hurt/sad/angry because you disagree with my opinions, it is bad of you to post things that make me feel negative emotions".

But I am merely repeating myself. New members can read this, much better expressed in this thread about why people post at internet forums and how net anonymity affects them
Vondondu has posted some excellent posts there.

[VonDondu]

C Elegans, I'm too busy to respond to your comments at the moment (a friend of mine has been in the hospital for the last three weeks and I'm going there to visit him this afternoon), but thank you for your kind remarks.

I didn't say this in the message thread that got closed because I could tell that tensions were so high (I'm being sarcastic, of course--I was simply too busy to post before the thread was closed), but here is my view of the circumstances that gave rise to that particular, uh, debate. Those who enjoy spam were put off by the fact that spam messages were bumped to the second page, and those who enjoy serious discussion were put off by the fact that serious messages were bumped to the second page. What it boils down to is this: too many threads were active, and too many messages were bumped to the second page. So people were actually complaining because the board is thriving (this a week after there were long threads about how "SYM is dying"). There's no pleasing some people.

[Maharlika]

People tend to get upset if their expectations of their perceptions of the entity concerned are not met.

Their expectations are based on what function this entity does for their own personal reason.

Personally, I just let things flow and see what comes of it.

I guess the only thing everyone should agree on are the forum rules...

...then again, at times, even the rules themselves would have a different interpretation for others.

[HiRo11er]

Before I say anything else, I feel I should point out that this reply has nothing to do with the previous posts, as i haven't read them all. I read the beginning of this thread, where the discussion revolves around whether or not gb can be considered a community, and how the forum has changed over the last few years.

Now, for my two cents. There seems to be a division between the old 'regulars', and the newbs that have recently started posting. First of all, I totally understand that the original members feel they have more of a personal involvement with the forum than us noobies, as they have been around the block and also know each other fairly well (at least as well as random people in an online forum can expect!).
I also feel that GB is a very civilized and friendly forum, with very little of the 'attitude problems' you'll see within many other forums & chat rooms. HOWEVER, I have noticed in many of the threads that I've read recently (And I also mean older threads) that several of the old-timers can be pretty arrogant whilst talking to some of the newer members. There is definitely an element of "I've been here longer than you, thus I know better"-attitudes here.
For instance, I just read ik's thread on the roman empire, and the guy gets chewed out pretty badly by some of the more experienced members of the forum. Mind you the responses he got were a lot closer to personal attacks than constructive criticism of his thoughts...
I've also seen comments by moderators that were less about the contents of posts, and more about the person that wrote them...
I think maybe the surface of GB appears to be super-friendly, but underneath there might be dark and dangerous undertows...

*wonders how long before he gets chewed out...*

[FweL]

Originally Posted by HiRo11er

*wonders how long before he gets chewed out...*

I doubt you will be chewed. Personally it realy doesn't matter what chat or forum you are if you just say something like that chewed thing. If you make new thread and at somepart you will type something like ''I know you will flmae me but...'' that just prevents quite nicely flaming. Or atleast that is my own experience. I know it sounds little bit silly, but it has like that for me belived you or not.

So please don't flame.

[CM]

Aww shut up You haven't paid me the 10 bucks yet. Only after paying are you allowed to comment on stuff with regard to SYM

Btw after that bit of an emotional run you will see that people are more friendily and peole are actually being nice and not faking it.

Plus i am always nice

[FweL]

Originally Posted by CM

Aww shut up You haven't paid me the 10 bucks yet. Only after paying are you allowed to comment on stuff with regard to SYM

Btw after that bit of an emotional run you will see that people are more friendily and peole are actually being nice and not faking it.

Plus i am always nice

Well i admit that I suck in English. But do you realy give me ten bucks? You are realy nice person.

You must be nicest person in whole GameBanshee.http://www.mycheers.com/platinum6/pi...vil/evil02.gif

[C Elegans]

@VonDondu: Hope your friend is ok by now!

Originally Posted by Maharlika

People tend to get upset if their expectations of their perceptions of the entity concerned are not met.

Their expectations are based on what function this entity does for their own personal reason.

That's precisely what I've been trying to say too but with many more words than you It is also the reason why I think people should try to assess how realistic their expectations are.

Originally Posted by HiRo11er

I read the beginning of this thread, where the discussion revolves around whether or not gb can be considered a community, and how the forum has changed over the last few years.
<snip>
There seems to be a division between the old 'regulars', and the newbs that have recently started posting.

I disagree with you that the division is mainly between "oldies" and "newbies", and if you read my posts in this thread, I think you will see why I disagree. In my opinion, the divisions and even conflicts have mainly been between two different views of the development of SYM. One group of members have proposed that SYM should be a community and should strive to keep the same features as they perceived SYM had in the "good old days". Another group of members have proposed that changes are natural and wished for, and that the "good old days" is more in the eye of the beholder than a real SYM:ian garden of Eden. If you read all posts in this thread, and also follow the links I posted in my last post above, you will see that it is old members in both groups.

First of all, I totally understand that the original members feel they have more of a personal involvement with the forum than us noobies, as they have been around the block and also know each other fairly well (at least as well as random people in an online forum can expect!).

There has been a lot of personal contact, also outside the forum, going on at SYM ever since it started. Some of the old members know each other very well, I would say.

There is definitely an element of "I've been here longer than you, thus I know better"-attitudes here.
For instance, I just read ik's thread on the roman empire, and the guy gets chewed out pretty badly by some of the more experienced members of the forum. Mind you the responses he got were a lot closer to personal attacks than constructive criticism of his thoughts...

I don't want to comment on any particular thread, but in general, during my 4 years here I have seen that many newcomers get bashed here when they post their opinions on different topics, if they have not done some decent reading up on the topic first, and if they are not prepared to present valid arguments for their proposals.

Many people, especially younger ones who are still in school, are not used to having to back up their opinions and thoughts with valid arguments. However, here at SYM there are many members who are experts in a variety of topics ranging from antropology, history, policial science, medicine, philosophy, arts, etc - and if you simply post "I think this and that is in this certain way because that truth because I feel that way", you are going to be questioned.

I think maybe the surface of GB appears to be super-friendly, but underneath there might be dark and dangerous undertows...

In my opinion you are totally correct, SYM is very friendly on the surface, but there are underlying conflicts which you, as a new user, hopefully will not be dragged into. Over the years, many broad topics such as religion, politics, philosophy and general moral issues, have been discussed many, many times in a variety of contexts. Some people take it very personally when you critise their religious or political views and that may lead to conflicts. Other people may simply disagree on issues they find so important so they simply don't like each other. (I for instance cannot tolerate racist views of any kind). Other people simply does not have anything in common, or does not like the personality type of each other.

So SYM is no paradise. It is just like most places where a variety of people interact with each other. What is special, in my opinion, is that so many people from different parts of the world, with different backgrounds and of different age, communicate with each other here

[Ekental]

OK I was on sleep deprevation when I wrote this... my bad sorry

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by C Elegans

<snip>
I don't want to comment on any particular thread, but in general, during my 4 years here I have seen that many newcomers get bashed here when they post their opinions on different topics, if they have not done some decent reading up on the topic first, and if they are not prepared to present valid arguments for their proposals.

Many people, especially younger ones who are still in school, are not used to having to back up their opinions and thoughts with valid arguments. However, here at SYM there are many members who are experts in a variety of topics ranging from antropology, history, policial science, medicine, philosophy, arts, etc - and if you simply post "I think this and that is in this certain way because that truth because I feel that way", you are going to be questioned.
<snip>

I agree with this and thinks that is why it can be percived as "newbie bashing" going on. Us whom have been here for a longer time, knows more about how to discuss on GameBanshee, and knows to back up our arguments as well as we can. I've seen many "newcommers" that simply post in a "serious discussion" with some flawed or illogical arguments - and then the other parties will confront that person with them. It is nothing personal or to do with postcount (most of the time ) - it is simply; to discuss a point of view you better have something to back it up with.
This I've found is different from many places I've else visited on the web, where an opinnion in itself often could be used as an argument, ala "I think it is so - therefore it is so". But that dosen't cut it in real life discussion and neither on GameBanshee.

[HiRo11er]

@ c_elegans: Thank you for taking my post seriously, and for obviously considering the things I had to say before you replied.
You've got good points, and I've also come to the conclusion that a lot of threads posted by younger kids tend to be not as thought through as they maybe should. However, you also have to realize that many of them might use an online forum to 'test out' their new-found knowledge, and see how it holds up in an anonymous debate. It just seems to me that whoever the 'expert' on any given topic is, they should consider the fact that they are in fact debating with a, say, 17-year-old, and that viciously attacking that person's point of view is not the best way to encourage the kid to participate in future discussions..
Also, I've seen many replies along the lines of "What have you been smoking?" "Think twice before posting stupid threads" (from a moderator), not to mention the good ole classic spanking provided to ik by Aegis... It hurt me deep inside when I read that...

What is special, in my opinion, is that so many people from different parts of the world, with different backgrounds and of different age, communicate with each other here

This is true, and looked at in this light it's amazing that the forums are running as smoothly as they are. There seems to be a great deal of diversity in here, and the fact that we're even talking to each other must be a positive thing!

PS: I've now read the whole thread, and I realize I'm not the only one that have posted these concerns before. Good! That means more people agree with me...