Community? (flame lightly)

[Lost One]

We are commun, but I think SYM is scattered between a few groups, who close the doors to newbies. Like me.

E você tem orgulho disso?

translation: And you're proud of this?

I ask this because of the boldness of your statement which seems to suggest you don't mind 'closing the doors to newbies'.

Anyway, this is probably my last post on this. I guess it is only natural for small groups to take hold of small forums (this goes for chat rooms too) for their own use. You see it all the time. Like Thantor mentioned in the beginning of the thread, I do believe it does have something to do with 'feeding individual egos'.

This is why in places of online chatting rooms, you have many, many rooms to choose from where you can speak socially...so that you don't come to the same 1 room that is commanded by the same group of people like what can be observed here. It's like I have only one option here, which is to suck up to the people in social groups so I can actually gain respect and feel more free to actually speak my mind. And when threads come along like Luis Antonio's "CM Kingdom" or "Weasel embarks on his mission to lead..." which to my opinion, goes against rule #5 and #8 of the forum, in the sense that it is made for explicit spamming and does not have any useful content...I'm once again reassured that the moderators are lenient towards this because of the elitist groups that have liberty of what they do/say.

I think it's a shame personally. Anything discussed in a public forum like this one should not exclude other members...but as it does, you'll get what has been happening until now. Small-time posters like me coming up to post things and then being 'intimidated' or just simply put down by the elitist groups.

I still have it fresh in my mind the light spam thread by Maharlika, "If Men are NOT from Mars..." where Mah said a certain post of mine was spam, which in fact, it wasn't...and even had it been, it seems the moderators have no problem with veterans about spamming. Just take a look at the amount of spam in just about every thread where the topic will usually stray off to talk about EC, COMM, or whatever it is that goes on.

Anyway, now that I am officially the forum villain for saying all this, heh, I think I'll just go back to posting in the game forums where there are no preferential attitudes and everyone is pretty much equal.

EDIT: I'd just like to add a PS...which is that I'm not particularly sorry for the dying of SYM as the vets are putting it. When you're not lenient towards new bloods or friendly towards them, then you are leaving the heart (the forum, in this case) to run on old blood which will eventually not prove sufficient. The way for evolution is for change to happen...and threads like 'Anomen Experiment' and all that nostalgic mambo jambo suggest the vets are clinging to the past and not allowing the forum to evolve.

I'm bad. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_106.gif

[dragon wench]

Originally Posted by Lost One

And when threads come along like Luis Antonio's "CM Kingdom" or "Weasel embarks on his mission to lead..." which to my opinion, goes against rule #5 and #8 of the forum, in the sense that it is made for explicit spamming and does not have any useful content...I'm once again reassured that the moderators are lenient towards this because of the elitist groups that have liberty of what they do/say.

The Speak Your Mind Forum was created precisely to allow for an environment in which most topics can be addressed, and moreover the forum also allows for socialising. Indeed, the forum was created specifically so those who were getting to know one another in the gaming forums (notably BG2) could have a place to chat generally without spamming those areas up.
Spam in SYM is therefore defined somewhat differently, as I understand it anyway. As an example, erm (sorry Aegis ) threads that are simply a successive listing of spelled out numbers designed to increase post counts.

Spam in SYM is also frowned upon when general conversation or otherwise unrelated material occurs in a thread that has a clearly designated subject.
Check out the link to this sticky at the top of SYM which will further clarify what I mean.
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=14427

[Lost One]

I have read the specific rules already DW, I just didn't think they overruled the general forum rules, for example, #8.

Anyway, that is another discussion. Read the part that I added at EDIT: in my last post which is relevant to the thread about why I think this community has gone downhill.

To put a long story short, this forum is not newbie friendly. I'm outta here now.

[Chanak]

Originally Posted by Luis Antonio

Yeah, dont mess with him, he may get nervous...

We are commun, but I think SYM is scattered between a few groups, who close the doors to newbies. Like me.

*Drill Sergeant voice mode* Why you disgusting little newbie! You infintesmally small piece of pond scum floating around in a sewage treatment pool! Who gave you permission to post? Who authorized you to think? Are you feeling frisky???*end voice mode*

All kidding aside...it's natural in a way for us to gravitate into groups of like-minded people, even here on the internet. That's to be expected, I think. Some groups, by their nature, are more open and accepting. Others can be more exclusive and aloof...it all depends upon the underlying framework of the group and why it formed in the first place. Is it a group of people who enjoy tossing around silly jokes and who enjoy having a good time? That's where one will often find the quickest acceptance. I think of the SLURR threads and spam in the old days and the fact that anyone could jump in and join the spamming. Beldin, Eery, Ode, and others were more cavalier and jovial than most others here with the threads they created, and just about anyone could find a place in the madness (as long as they weren't a grump ). Then, of course, there is Weasel.

It's more of an issue of group personalities than any penchant for exclusion, I think. These days we are looking at SYM bereft of much of what it once possessed. I know for myself, I simply don't have the inner energy to write in the DFs at this time, nor spam like I used to. Yet I still remain here, perhaps out of habit, hoping to see some of the people I had come to know here post once in a while...

Sleepy. If you're out there reading this, you lurker, a pox on you.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Lost One

E você tem orgulho disso?

translation: And you're proud of this?

I ask this because of the boldness of your statement which seems to suggest you don't mind 'closing the doors to newbies'.

He defines himself as a newbie, which would likely answer you question.

Originally Posted by Lost One

Anyway, this is probably my last post on this. I guess it is only natural for small groups to take hold of small forums (this goes for chat rooms too) for their own use. You see it all the time. Like Thantor mentioned in the beginning of the thread, I do believe it does have something to do with 'feeding individual egos'.

It is natural for people that have history together to have a lot of inside "jokes"/meanings/language and what not. And that has nothing to do with wether or not it is an online community/chat-room/forum. It goes for real life interaction as well. It happens with groups of people at work, school, sports, army and so on....
So basically to me, it seems as if you feel excluded/"bashed on" because somebody here has known each other for almost 3-4 years, and you feel they are "elitist" because they have inside jokes.

Originally Posted by Lost One

This is why in places of online chatting rooms, you have many, many rooms to choose from where you can speak socially...so that you don't come to the same 1 room that is commanded by the same group of people like what can be observed here. It's like I have only one option here, which is to suck up to the people in social groups so I can actually gain respect and feel more free to actually speak my mind. And when threads come along like Luis Antonio's "CM Kingdom" or "Weasel embarks on his mission to lead..." which to my opinion, goes against rule #5 and #8 of the forum, in the sense that it is made for explicit spamming and does not have any useful content...I'm once again reassured that the moderators are lenient towards this because of the elitist groups that have liberty of what they do/say.

As DW has explained - and as the forum rules also state (We are more lenient on spam in the Speak Your Mind forum, but excessive amounts will not be tolerated. ) - then spam is viewed differnetly in SYM.
Spam in SYM is tolerated, because that was why SYM was created in the first place. (A thread called Goody reached many pages in the BG2 forum, and Buck made SYM to keep off-topic out of BG2).
That is why threads like "CM Kingdom" and "Weasel embarks....." are tolerated, as well are "pub-threads". However - as DW also mentions - "Counting with Aegis" is not tolerated, because it was just post-farming.
So there is no protection of "elitist groups", eventhough you claim it.
Also - as I've mentioned in an ealier post in this thread. "Oldies"/Veterans" ... part of the elite as you might say - has infact been banned from these boards for going over the line in various cases.
Which also shows there is no protection of the elite.
Claming that we moderators show favoritisme should be backed up, with more then pointing to 2 "spam" threads in a forum created to support "off-topic"/spam posting.

Originally Posted by Lost One

<snip>
I think it's a shame personally. Anything discussed in a public forum like this one should not exclude other members...but as it does, you'll get what has been happening until now. Small-time posters like me coming up to post things and then being 'intimidated' or just simply put down by the elitist groups. <snip>

Do you claim to be excluded if two (or more) people at school/work talks more to each other, because they also interact in their free time?
Do you claim they are "elitist"?

Originally Posted by Lost One

<snip>
I still have it fresh in my mind the light spam thread by Maharlika, "If Men are NOT from Mars..." where Mah said a certain post of mine was spam, which in fact, it wasn't...and even had it been, it seems the moderators have no problem with veterans about spamming.
<snip>

Because much of the debates that goes on in SYM can be serious and controversial at times, we have always asked that people respect the "No Spam" if written in for instance the thread titel.
Then it means that off-topic in regards of the topic should be kept to a minimum.
That thread Maharlika had posted that he wished for "no spam" in the thread, and he adressed a point where he felt you posted spam.
So you can't claim that we (moderators) run favorites because some threads allow spam and others don't.

Originally Posted by Lost One

<snip>
To put a long story short, this forum is not newbie friendly. I'm outta here now.

It is a lot more newbie friendly then any other forum I've met duing my many years on the Internet.

Because I'm both a moderator and self-censuring, I'll limit the expressing my feelings. But I really feel you are doing injustice to many of us as humans, and leave it at the fact that there is a proverb that states; that if you wish to change things, start with the man in the mirror.

[Dottie]

Still, though I dont agree with some of lost ones examples, I do agree that there is double standards on this board, and have been as long as I can remember. For example Gruntboy comitted multiple instances of personal attacks before being banned. I find it difficult to belive any newbie with the same attitude would have lastet that long. Also, the fact that there is much jargon wich might keep newbies out is undeniable.

Now, the second problem is imo to a degree unsolvable, ofcourse posters must be allowed to make references to previous threads on the board etc.

Regarding spam I think the exact nature of it on SYM is a very confusing for everyone, including older posters. Generarly it seem judgment is based much on the thread starters intention, wich is ok imo, but bound the lead to a number of misunderstandings.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Dottie

Still, though I dont agree with some of lost ones examples, I do agree that there is double standards on this board, and have been as long as I can remember. For example Gruntboy comitted multiple instances of personal attacks before being banned. I find it difficult to belive any newbie with the same attitude would have lastet that long.
<snip>

Seeing as Buck is the only one that can ban members, it is not something that can be blamed on the community and/or moderators.

Each person can report violations if he so wishes.

[Dottie]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Seeing as Buck is the only one that can ban members, it is not something that can be blamed on the community and/or moderators.

Each person can report violations if he so wishes.

Heh, I wasnt trying to cast a shadow on anyone Xandax, including the mods and Buck. However the different treatment is imo a bad thing, regardless of its causes.

[Kayless]

Originally Posted by CM

Kayless an off topic question you think that the DC forum more resembles SYM that used to be?

As a matter of fact I do. The tone is a lot lighter and more casual over there (here I often feel like I'm in a college lecture hall, over there I feel like I'm just hanging out with my buddies). The spirit there is a lot like SYM used to be (it doesn't hurt that there are a large number of SYMian expatriates there too).

[C Elegans]

Originally Posted by VonDondu

I'm just curious: did you recently look up those examples, or do you keep them "on file"?

I looked then up - it was easy to find numerous examples since I both remember particular threads where lively debates has been going on, and remember some specific members who liked to participate in such threads.

@Lost One: Thanks for posting examples that clarify what you were referring to - I hope you read this post. I agree with much of your opinions regarding how newcomers are treated here at SYM.

On basis on what I have seen myself, I partly disagree with the same issue as Xandax has already brought up, and for the similar reasons:

Originally Posted by Xandax

Unlike many other places I've visted on the web, debating here is done much based on facts and/or personal experiences, and less on insults and flames or even "I remember having read...."-statements.
This have possible done that some "oldies" are more carefull/experienced with posting what they can back up, then newcommers that aren't used to such debates, and thus are more likely to post semi-factual stuff. And this might again look like that newcommers are "bashed" more. Now - I have no real way of knowing this, because I don't experience it much (most seems to overlook my posting ) - but based on what you (and others?) say/feel it could be a possible answer to it.

However @Lost One, I have got the impression that old members who state very strong opinions not based on facts, are less critisised for this than new members. If an old member appeals to emotional arguments or post factual errors, it is more likely that this will be accepted as "difference in opinion/culture" whereas if a new user post opinions with the same low degree of supporting facts, it will be scrutinised. This, I think comes down to that if you don't post fact-based conclusions, you in fact post personal opinion. And the personal opinion of an old member counts are more worth as the personal opinion of a new member. Look at your own and GNGspam's posts in this thread as an example: you both apologise for posting your personal opinion, although the Thantor asked for our opinions, and since there are no scientific studies of SYM and we don't have any controlled, objective measurement systems around here to measure what we are talking about here, everybody is posting their personal opinions, not more, not less. So I think this thread in itself provides excellent example of how the SYM ingroup-culture does not encourage newer posters to participate at the same terms and be assessed according to the same criteria. I don't want to lable this behaviour elitism, since I certainly think it is "natural", spontenous group behaviour that will emerge without people being aware of it or having this intention - but the group processes I have described as ingroup behaviour exist, and I think it's only good that somebody with fresher eyes brings up the topic.

Regarding spam, I don't at all think you should view yourself as a bad boy here. I didn't read your post in the Mahar's thread that was classified as spam, but I can well understand that the vague criteria for what is defined as spam and not, are confusing.

In the SYM-specific sticky thread, it is stated that:

2) Keep the spam relevant. By this we mean make it entertaining or at least sociable. Not just nonsense such as "Spam is good" or counting down to landmark posts. These sorts of posts will be deleted. Also please don?t spam topics in which the poster has requested no spam.

Now, at SYM as in many groups, self-reference serves as increasing the sense of common history and shared experiences, which in turn strenghten the bonds between the group members. Unfortunatly, self-referencial behaviour such as jargon and recall of past events, also serves as a barrier for newcomers. I agree with you Lost One that for a new user, there is no way of knowing why a thread like "CM Kingdom" is not considered spam according to the critera stated in the forum rules. It is not obvious that a thread about other members close encounters with sheep is "relevant, entertaining or at least sociable".

Finally, @Kayless, I know that you and several other SYM-members grew tired of the serious discussion that for instance I enjoy. You went off and started a new forum, aimed for jokes and light-hearted spam only, which I think is an excellent initiative: If you want something, make it.

[Luis Antonio]

Originally Posted by Lost One

E você tem orgulho disso?

translation: And you're proud of this?

Anyway, this is probably my last post on this. I guess it is only natural for small groups to take hold of small forums (this goes for chat rooms too) for their own use. You see it all the time. Like Thantor mentioned in the beginning of the thread, I do believe it does have something to do with 'feeding individual egos'.

And when threads come along like Luis Antonio's "CM Kingdom" or "Weasel embarks on his mission to lead..." which to my opinion, goes against rule #5 and #8 of the forum, in the sense that it is made for explicit spamming and does not have any useful content...I'm once again reassured that the moderators are lenient towards this because of the elitist groups that have liberty of what they do/say.

I think it's a shame personally. Anything discussed in a public forum like this one should not exclude other members...but as it does, you'll get what has been happening until now. Small-time posters like me coming up to post things and then being 'intimidated' or just simply put down by the elitist groups.

Anyway, now that I am officially the forum villain for saying all this, heh, I think I'll just go back to posting in the game forums where there are no preferential attitudes and everyone is pretty much equal.

I'm bad. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_106.gif

Actually not. But by sayin that, as you are doing, I might help this barrier to be lowered. I'm not quite the spammer nor the funnier, but Im sure things will work out if newbies and "external" people with different religions and other tendencies dont let things fall apart.

This is an ancient comunity. We have the COMM, the SLURR, the DF... and lots of others. I'm sure it is not as easy as pie to convince them to trust an outsider who may destroy the environment just when he comes by.

I'm not against you nor favouring you. I just thing you are overreacting on Mah and the rest of the guys threads. Well, at least sometimes. I'm sorry if my "CM Kingdom" is useless spam for you, but I might add that fun is part of the game, and you are being restrictive yourself, building a wall and not enabling people to express themselves. Man, I like your posts, but if I cant have some fun here, what is the purpose of this place? I mean, if asked to post seriously, I'd post seriously and apologize when I feel I'm wrong. But the only real interaction wich makes people closer to us here are product of spam.

I mean, I guess you are mad, and angry... relax, bro... relax.

[Lost One]

I mean, I guess you are mad, and angry... relax, bro... relax.

Heh, tá na hora de curtir aquela onda 'relax' do cachimbo da paz. Só ficar na boa, viajando bastante e pensando na morte da bezerra. Já é.

Direct translation: Heh, it's time to enjoy that relax wave from the pipe of peace. Just stay in the good, travelling a lot and thinking on the death of the little sheep. Already is.

Hm......why do direct translations never make any sense?

Anyway, I have probably overstepped my bounds in going on about how there is differentiated treatment here. I'm sure everyone heard my opinions well enough the first two, three times. So, in case anyone got annoyed by my posts, enjoy the severe beating of Lost One:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_131.gif

PS: Just to say I'm not off-topic...I'd like to add that, hm...communities are like boxes of chocolate. You never know what you're going to get. Now pass me the dutch!

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by dragon wench

Spam in SYM is therefore defined somewhat differently, as I understand it anyway. As an example, erm (sorry Aegis ) threads that are simply a successive listing of spelled out numbers designed to increase post counts.

I'll read up on everything past this comment DW made, when I have time, but...

No need to apologize, DW... Though, sadly, that's my claim to fame on these boards... Notoriously counting for no reason... BTW, You gave me quite a good laugh referencing it, thanks

[VonDondu]

I haven't spent much time analyzing what I think of this message board or what others seem to think of it. I did participate in a recent thread in which we discussed, in part, the reasons why people join message boards. I suspect that the reasons why people post are directly related to how they feel about the message board.

I have always had the feeling that other members regard GB as a "community", but I regard it "merely" as an internet message board. That's because I get out of it what I put into it, so to speak. I hope that none of you are put off by that. GB is my favorite message board, and I really enjoy posting and reading messages here. I can't say that I really "know" any of you beyond your posting history here, but I do have some idea of what to expect from a lot of you, and I do look forward to reading messages from just about everybody. Without going into detail, I don't think any message board has the necessary "structure" to meet the definition of a "community", but I won't deny it might feel like a community to some of its members. I don't feel like getting into that argument any further. But I will say that I am happy to be a member of this message board. Fair enough?

If GB has changed over the years, it hasn't really affected me. I've seen members come and go, but that sort of thing seems natural to me in Real Life, and I did not feel personally affected by it here.

Because my post count is high enough and I have enough name recognition, I don't feel like an "outsider" here. Nor do I feel like I'm a member of an "elite faction". So I don't think there's any reason to feel like it can only be one or the other.

Originally Posted by Lost One

...I think I'll just go back to posting in the game forums where there are no preferential attitudes and everyone is pretty much equal. ...

I guess the reason why I feel that "there are no preferential attitudes and everyone is pretty much equal" in ALL of the forums here at GB is because I'm interested in the game forums more than anything else.

Originally Posted by Lost One

...EDIT: I'd just like to add a PS...which is that I'm not particularly sorry for the dying of SYM as the vets are putting it. When you're not lenient towards new bloods or friendly towards them, then you are leaving the heart (the forum, in this case) to run on old blood which will eventually not prove sufficient...

I don't know if that's true, but that's an interesting point. IF it's true that GB participation is limited to just a few members, then this board will deteriorate when natural attrition takes place. I can't argue with that. But as I said, I don't know if that's the case here at GB. Maybe that's because there are plenty of newbies stumbling into the game forums asking new questions.

You've made a distinction that I would like to emphasize: even if SYM is "dying" as some people say, that doesn't mean the board as a whole is dying. That's important.

Originally Posted by Lost One

...your statement...seems to suggest you don't mind 'closing the doors to newbies'.

...I guess it is only natural for small groups to take hold of small forums (this goes for chat rooms too) for their own use. You see it all the time. Like Thantor mentioned in the beginning of the thread, I do believe it does have something to do with 'feeding individual egos'.

This is why in places of online chatting rooms, you have many, many rooms to choose from where you can speak socially...so that you don't come to the same 1 room that is commanded by the same group of people like what can be observed here. It's like I have only one option here, which is to suck up to the people in social groups so I can actually gain respect and feel more free to actually speak my mind...

In my experience, that is certainly true of online chat groups. Those do seem to be dominated by tight groups of people who positively enjoy intimidating newbies. I think some of that can be attributed to the fact that chat groups are interactive and responses are immediate.

On the other hand, I see much less of that at GB. For one thing, GB is not very interactive and responses are not instantaneous. But aside from that, I just don't feel that "vets" are ganging up on newbies.

In the game forums, the members are always happy to help newcomers and listen to their input. I have posted a lot of messages in SYM as well, and I had no idea it was so much different in SYM.

Maybe that's just a reflection on me. I'm not intimidated by other people on the internet. I post pretty much whatever I feel like posting, regardless of other people's reactions. Of course, I have the luxury of being right most of the time. --Ha, ha, just kidding. But as you can see, my ego is quite secure. If I feel like other people have more knowledge about a particular subject than I do, I either defer to them or just keep my mouth shut. I don't have a problem with other people knowing more than I do. Or I might tease them occasionally if the urge strikes me. The point is, I don't need anyone's approval to come here and post messages.

Since I like to help, here is a practical suggestion for anyone who feels intimidated in SYM and would like to have some "backup" whenever they post a message that the "vets" here do not accept. I call it the "sock puppet" technique. Just create a second user account, and whenever you make a post with your primary account, post another message with your secondary account saying how much you agree with your other post. It could do wonders for your ego.

Originally Posted by C Elegans

I agree with much of your opinions regarding how newcomers are treated here at SYM.

I did this just to quote you out of context. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by VonDondu

<snip>
Since I like to help, here is a practical suggestion for anyone who feels intimidated in SYM and would like to have some "backup" whenever they post a message that the "vets" here do not accept. I call it the "sock puppet" technique. Just create a second user account, and whenever you make a post with your primary account, post another message with your secondary account saying how much you agree with your other post. It could do wonders for your ego.

<snip>

Very bad advice. Buck dislikes secondary accounts so much that it is a bannable offence if discovered. (allthough I suspect you are joking, I still feel the need to warn about it )

#6 - Registering and using multiple accounts is not allowed. If we determine that you have more than one account (by matching IPs, etc), all accounts will lose their posting privileges.